NBA Top 50: Deron Williams (No. 20) - NBA FanHouse
Deron at only #20? And right now Gasol and Al Jefferson are ahead of him? A joke. Boozer hasn't even been mentioned yet. And as good as Boozer is, I think Deron ranks above him.
And from the comments, everyone agrees. I guess Tom Ziller doesn't watch a lot of Jazz games.
about 1 year ago
Basketball John
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i saw that yesterday....
and i thought it was so off-base that i decided not to fanshot it. :-)
the more (non-jazz) sports sites you read, the more you realize that virtually none of the so-called analysts watch any jazz games. when writing about the jazz, it’s second nature to them to talk about the jazz’ defensive intensity, boozer being a beast in the post, and at times, the jazz’ slow, boring offense.
we, however, know differently….
I'm with you, it is a joke
Willams should be ranked in the triple digits. I’d rank him at about 111. Boozer is probably about 374.
Jerry Sloan is the Michael Scott of the NBA.
I appreciate unexplained anger as much as the next guy, but if anyone would like to explain why they think Williams is better than Gasol, Boozer or Jefferson, I’m all ears. I made my case, right?
Simple answer
You could throw out stats and all that. But the easy question is, if you were drafting right now to build a team, who would you pick? Would you build a team around Gasol, Boozer, or Jefferson over Williams? Why don’t you throw a poll up on your site?
by Basketball John on Sep 20, 2008 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions
This ranking is about who will be the best players in 2008-09, and doesn’t account for salaries, as I explained in an introductory post you may not have seen. I would take those bigs over Williams for next season.
Well, he sealed it. No going back now.
I personally love it. I hope Deron checks out this website and takes it as personal motivation to finally beat Minnesota and the Lakers. And the Kings by putting up 44 points 8 rebounds and 15 assists.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
ziller, if you watched any jazz games in '08...
there is no way you would put boozer ahead of dwill. no possible way.
i don’t watch non-jazz games, so i can’t make the same case for players on other teams, but i can say this with 100% assurance.
Dude, cut it out
Make a case for Deron, don’t call out someone for not watching the games when they don’t agree with you. I can assure you that Tom watches Jazz games.
Honestly, the whole response here is annoying. I don’t agree with Ziller’s rankings, but nobody here has made any sort of compelling case for Williams, except to say that it’s common knowledge to rank him higher. Obviously, it’s not.
(Note: My case would involve something about D-Will’s playoff performances the last couple years, especially compared to Boozer’s. When the game slows down and schemes become less important, D-Will emerges as the most important guy).
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
your note—i.e. dwill’s playoff performance being superior to boozer’s, and who the key player on the team is depending on the speed of the game, are exactly things you learn from watching games and not just reading box scores or research.
That's a good point.
In Ziller’s behalf, I see where he is coming from, even if I don’t agree. His argument is that Boozer was putting up big numbers before Deron ever came along which is a good point. But Boozer is much more stoppable than Deron Williams. Looking at the stats you could draw the conclusion that Boozer does all his work on the boards and offensive putbacks, which is true, but watching the games, you see exactly what you, Moni and Pradamaster mentioned. Deron controls the team and the tempo and is the identity of the offense. He literally runs it. And who has shutdown Deron in the league? Not many, if any. But there are matchups where Boozer can’t be himself and he is easier to plan against. Those are reasons why I think Deron is more valuable.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
You can find numbers to support that
Please. Playoff stats, playoff usage rates, playoff offensive efficiencies, etc. You just don’t want to do the work.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
Eu too, good sir
" ziller, if you watched any jazz games in ’08…there is no way you would put boozer ahead of dwill. no possible way."
virtually none of the so-called analysts watch any jazz games.
when writing about the jazz, it’s second nature to them to talk about the jazz’ defensive intensity, boozer being a beast in the post, and at times, the jazz’ slow, boring offense.
Numbers don’t tell the entire story, but numbers substantiate points you’re trying to make. Saying “Williams is better in the playoffs” and then not providing any basis for the claim is kind of like writing a paper on a primary source without using any secondary evidence.
Anyway, in his playoff career, Williams is averaging ~20.2/4/9.2 per 40 minutes while sporting a 51.9 eFG% and a 56.5 true shooting percentage. In the last two regular seasons, in slightly fewer minutes those numbers are 17.5/2.7/9.9 with a career eFG% of 50.9 and career TS% of 54.9. Clearly, the dude raises his game when the playoffs come.
You know you'll get devoured by Cheaney, Wallace, and Juwan Howard.
I watch Jazz games. Four times against Sacramento, most times they’re on nat’l TV, all postseason. I’ve seen plenty of Williams and Boozer. And I’ve researched plenty about Williams and Boozer. And my opinion and arguments stand.
Ziller, answer this.
If Deron Williams was replaced by a truly median point guard like Anthony Carter of the Nuggets, how many games would the Jazz win?
Conversely, if Carlos Boozer is replaced by Fabricio Oberto, how many games do the Jazz win?
*both replacement players were picked out of the middle of the PER rankings for each position.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
There are lots of ways to measure if someone is better than someone else.
Lots of people like to play the replacement game. What would happen if they switched places? But they have to be te same position. Or else, if I replaced this player with an average player at that position, who’s absence would cause more detriment? Or else some people look at stats, like PER, or some people will always think bigger people are better because they are a big man, or whatever position. I think you, Ziller, feel big men are better than guards. So even though Williams is a top 3 pg, and Jefferson and Gasol are not top pfs, you think they (Gasol and Jefferson) are more valuable.
As far as Williams and Boozer go, I think Williams bests Boozer in every argument. It would be more detrimental to lose Williams than Boozer for the Jazz. And Boozer needs Williams to be effective and WIlliams needs Boozer less in order to be effective. And then you have basketball John’s argument above, which is Williams too.
And as far as Gasol goes, ask Laker fans, who they would rather have. About 70% of them would say Williams, I would guess, from what I have seen Lakers fans say about Gasol. Not to mention the fact that when making this list you have to judge by what the player is today and not what he has been or who you think he will become. I am not accusing you of this, but I think many people overvalue Gasol or maybe even Williams because of what they have been (20-12 guy for Gasol) or what we think they will be ( I personally don’t think Paul’s numbers will improve as much as Deron’s will).
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
My Thinking On Where To Rank Deron
I’m sorry I haven’t been following all of the Top 50 list, only a few players here and there, so I’m not sure who’s ahead of Deron but #20 seems far far too low to me.
Utah have the most efficient offense in the league. Deron Williams is a phenomenal floor general, a brilliant decision maker, he is the heartbeat of the offense. He gets his teammates good shots, the ball movement is brilliant, the player movement is impeccable, they’re very good in the open floor, his teammates cut hard and run because they know Deron is going to find them and reward them for their efforts. Utah’s offense is the most difficult offense in the league to derail and it’s because of Deron Williams.
Deron Williams is also one of the most unstoppable players in the league as Boston defense found out, as the Spurs defense found out, as the Rockets defense found out, as Detroit’s defense found out, as the Hornets defense found out. Very few players in the NBA are good enough defensively to bother Williams, his blend of strength/quickness and incredible skill level makes him a tricky matchup for any of the top defensive point guards in the league and also the top stoppers on the wing.
Then add in the scoring, the efficiency, the jump shooting, the midrange game, the finishing at the rim. Now add in the penetration and creativity. The amount of pressure he puts on an opposition defense is massive. Then add in his good defense on the other end. Clutch player who plays well in all the big matchups, big games and during the playoffs.
At the very least Deron Williams is the second best point guard (Paul) in the league. In my mind he’s at least one of the top 6 perimeter players in the league – LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Pierce are the four wings.
So how many big men are you taking ahead of him? I take Duncan. KG I’m fine with. Dwight Howard is another. Then who? I’d rather Deron than Yao, so I’m leaving off Yao. The top 50 list had Bynum somewhere in the mid 20’s right so you’re not taking guys on their future, so I presume Oden is also off the list. So no there are no other center’s I’m taking ahead of Deron. What power forwards? Dirk? I’d rather Williams. If I’ve forgetton anyone please add them in.
Okay that’s my two cents on the topic. I have two point guards, four wings, three big men. In my mind it’s debatable where Deron falls within that group but I regard him as clearly superior to the next tier of players. That’s a Top 10 ranking which sounds about right to me.
by NBR on Sep 25, 2008 2:05 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Excellent
That’s pretty much how I feel about it. I think the best way to look at it is like Bill Simmons’ annual top 40 players list. The basic premise is that the you wouldn’t trade the #1 player for anyone in the league straight up. You would only trade the #2 player for the #1 player, etc. So if you look at the rest of the players in the league, who would you rather take over Deron? It’s a small list. The players you listed above are the only ones that I can think of that I would say we would give up Deron for. If someone offered those players for Deron, you’d have to take it.
I’m actually writing up a a preview for the season ranking the Jazz players in this method. Coming soon.
by Basketball John on Sep 25, 2008 2:33 PM MDT up reply actions
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