The Downbeat - 5 November 2009 - #94 - The Great Debate Edition
by Basketball John on Nov 5, 2009 11:15 AM MST
in The Downbeat
17 comments
Fantastic discussions yesterday. Whether it was in the Downbeat, a can of tuna (where Vromanite's trade machine 'shop was on BDL), or the beginning of the end, it was great to see everyone's opinions and discussion. Perhaps the best part was that it didn't regress into name calling, etc. We have an amazing group of posters, commenters, and lurkers. High quality stuff all around.
This was brought up in one of the discussions. But what would everyone think of a Boozer for Tyrus Thomas and Jerome James trade? Or also include Kyle Korver and John Salmons in the mix?
Everyone's deal, with the exception of Salmons, expires at the end of the year, so there's not a huge risk that way. Thomas has been disgruntled in Chicago because he believes he should be starting. Seems like both players could use a change of scenery.
However, if Thomas came here, he would likely be the backup as well to Millsap/Okur. He wouldn't start but I could see him getting huge minutes as he would come in for either one of them. What about a second unit of Price, Matthews, AK, Thomas, and Ronnie B? Does that work? Does acquiring him mean even less playing time for Fess and the KOOF?
From what I've read up on Thomas is that he's a great shot blocker, but not necessarily a good defender with help D and the like.
I think at this point, if the Jazz could land this deal, it would be a huge win given the current value of Boozer.
Late start again tonight against the Spurs. They've had a semit-easy start to the season as they've got to plan NOLA and Sacramento at home. Their lone loss came on the road against the Bulls.
And in a bit of a scheduling perk to give some of those old bones a rest, they haven't played for 5 days. So despite being on the road, they've had a mini vacation leading up to the game that will give them fresh legs and ample time to develop a game plan. Not good news.
Some of the biggest complaints from Jazz fans right now is the lack of hustle, lack of toughness, and seemingly lack of desire.
Has the bar been set too high for Jazz fans? Should be be comparing the current team to the Stockon and Malone days? We don't expect the same numbers necessarily that both of them put up on a consistent basis. They were once in a lifers.
I'm not going one way or the other with this issue, but is it fair to compare the two eras?
I just barely took a look at the stats from Dallas this morning. The Jazz were in the penalty with 9 minutes left in the game. The stats that stood out to me was that Deron AND Memo had 0 fouls to start the fourth quarter. They then are called for 5 fouls apiece and the Jazz as a team have 13 of their 24 fouls in that quarter alone. That resulted in Dallas going 18-18 from the free-throw line. Of course nobody could handle Dirk either. Unbelievable.
So, is that a result of fatigue? Home court advantage? They had more fouls called on them in the fourth than the previous three quarters combined.
It just seems weird that with the flip of a switch the Jazz would get tired at that point and start hacking at such a high rate.
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Point #5
Jazz fans have always suspecting something a bit more conspiratorial in games where a superstar and/or great story was on the other team.
by Taivo on Nov 5, 2009 11:26 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
I never buy into the "refs are against the Jazz" theories
However, I turned to my girlfriend about a minute into the game and said: “The refs are going to let the Mavs back into the game”. It was plain that they completely changed the way they were calling the game. They started calling little touch fouls, whereas the previous 3 quarters they were largely letting the teams play. The Mavs shot, something like 9 ft’s up to that point, then almost 20 in that quarter alone. I’m not going to attempt to pose any theories as to why they changed, but they did.
by prodigal punk on Nov 5, 2009 12:33 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Its still early in the season so...
1. The comments may regress as the team continues to regress. When we lose to everyone and their grandma whitaker, the comments will erode! you mark my words! with an orange highlighter please!?
2. Trade the bastard for any loser in the NBA/DL! Anyone who has heart and passion for the game will fit in nicely any rotation will work.
8. The old tymers are gonna give our young bucks a hiding!
4.We have an expectation, we have been brought up on a team from our who were hard core ballers. Greg Miller talks of consistency, well, the hard nosed, game loving, hard fouling, gutsy screening team has vanished. Replaced by a group of soft pansies. If he talks about being consistent, be consistent. Bring the NASTINESS back, we don’t need model citizens in the community. We need BALLERS, who have a pair as well! He can start today by escorting the tutu dressed figurines out of SLC!
5. Boozer was in the game, his new name is “Chemistry Killer #5”
by UtonganKidInCali on Nov 5, 2009 12:38 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
2.
do it! trade him for anything. i don’t even care who it is anymore. jazz won’t come out ahead in this situation but right now i don’t even care.
by P_Dizzle on Nov 5, 2009 12:47 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Please do a Giricek
and bench the Booz til you trade him.
by UtonganKidInCali on Nov 5, 2009 12:51 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
- - We love our team. Fair weather fans, we are not.
- - I don’t know. I believe half the problem with Boozer is that he’s in the way of the development of Millsap, Koof, and Fess (and indirectly CJ when he gets back). That’s why I came up with the whole Can o’ Tuna idea in the first place. I don’t want a replacement. I want to see what the young guys can become.
- - I want a fight. I believe the Spurs will be the champs this year. But they generally don’t start seasons with a roar — not even during their best years. They’re busy fiddling and experimenting with lineups. If the Jazz put up a good fight, they could get a nice win. Or at least a less soul-killing loss.
- - Hard to say. Talent-wise, this team eclipses the Finals teams. Toughness wise … maybe we should just wish for guys to be willing to rotate on defense on time.
- - I don’t believe in conspiracies. Didn’t watch the Dallas game, but I just checked out all 3 4th q. suckfests: Denver: Jazz foul on 1st 3 Denver possessions of the 4th. Houston: Jazz foul on 1st 3 possessions of the 4th. Dallas: Jazz foul on 5 of first 6 possessions in the 4th. Are refs changing how they call game in 4th? Are the other teams coming out suddenly fired up and the Jazz aren’t ready? I don’t know.
by Yucca Man on Nov 5, 2009 12:54 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
I guess I don't know how to do numbered lists right
At least not in comments.
by Yucca Man on Nov 5, 2009 12:55 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Overreacting (myself included).
After the game against Dallas Tuesday, I was livid. I was embarassed for how that fourth quarter went and it’s been extensively covered and discussed regarding whose fault that loss belongs to. The Houston game also was incredibly disappointing due to, as the dream shakers say, “40% of the payroll of the Rockets” crushed us. The way the Jazz have started made me want to burn my season tickets! However, I think I was overreacting.
Realistically, an optimistic Jazz fan would have anticipated us being 3-1 now, with wins over the Clippers and Rockets and one over the Nuggets or Mavs. 2-2 might have even been the pessimists prediction. The Jazz went 1-3 and a lot of us are outraged. But, our three losses came against good teams!
Denver is one of the hottest teams in the league right now. And the Jazz played the first three quarters of that game really hard! The Jazz had a chance to win that game, but came up short.
Houston has no superstars, but that didn’t stop them from taking the Lakers to overtime! That team is tougher in real life than what it looks like they should be on paper. While I do think the Jazz should have beat that team, the fact is they lost to a good team.
Dallas has one of the best home court advantages in the NBA. They are always tough there, and again we had more than a decent shot to win that game as well!
Considering the opposition that beat the Jazz, none of those losses were terrible. I think the situation seems worse than it is because it all happened so quickly at the beginning of the season. And because of the consistency in the fourth quarter meltdowns. Do I think the Jazz have problems still? Oh yeah. But I want to see at least a week or two more games before I conclude that this team is irreparably broken. It sure would be nice if one of our power forwards would step up, though.
On an unrelated note, the Jazz offense has seemed stagnant at times to me. And in the games I have watched, it seems they are not doing that free throw line, curl play very much. I love that play; it seems like we score about 80% of the time with it. I guess we’re not doing it as much now because our three best shooters (from that play) are not playing: Matty, Korver and CJ. Oh well.
by Code_Blue on Nov 5, 2009 1:06 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Interesting paragraph from the AP game preview
“The Spurs (2-1) didn’t feel that way about Ginobili’s clutch performance in their last game in Utah – a 106-100 victory on Jan. 27. Ginobili scored 10 of his 13 in the fourth quarter, including a 6-of-6 effort at the foul line in the final 24 seconds, as San Antonio snapped a four-game slide in Salt Lake City.”
Hopefully the guys can keep that from happening tonight.
by chamont on Nov 5, 2009 3:42 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
4) No, it’s probably not fair to compare the two eras — John Stockton is not walking through that door. Karl Malone is not walking through that door. But, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask the team to come out and try hard every night. Yeah, we were spoiled with the success of the Stockton-to-Malone years, and I’m not sure anyone expects the team to have that kind of success again. (Although, it would be nice!) But, what we do expect is that the team at least try hard, and not just go through the motions.
I think that’s every Jazz fan’s problem with Boozer. We don’t question his talent, we question his work ethic. If he went out every night and at least tried hard, we wouldn’t have as much of a problem. After all, that’s what we loved about Big Red, Big Dog, Greg Foster, and Polynice (okay, scratch that last one), they tried. Yeah, they missed shots, blew the occasional defensive rotation, dribbled off their feet, etc. But, you never questioned if they were giving it their all. Would we care if Boozer fouled out on a bad block? Probably. But, we wouldn’t kill him for trying. Would we be disappointed if he had a bad 2/12 shooting night? Yeah, but if the shots were good, we wouldn’t be calling for him to be traded.
If the front office and coaching staff doesn’t see that, then they have even bigger issues than anyone would suspect.
by kris247 on Nov 5, 2009 4:50 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
2. after reading yucca man’s comment, i’m wondering if we can trade boozer for draft picks a la camby. it’ll be a month before kk and cj get back, but w/o boozer, this will be the team that went on the win streak last season and were flying high as a kite until boozer came back and killed it all the moment he got his minutes back.
8. jazz = tonight’s bat.
4. when i complain, i’m not comparing the team to the teams of old. i’m not holding them up to any particular standard. they’re just plain bad.
by moni on Nov 5, 2009 5:41 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Trading strictly for picks is difficult because picks have no value under the CBA. The only reason Denver could trade Camby to Clippers for picks is that LAC was far enough under the salary cap to absorb his entire salary (without going more than $100,00 over the cap). When all the teams in a trade are over the cap the value of the total value traded salaries has to be within 125% of each other, plus $100,000.
Right now there are six teams under the salary cap, but none of them have enough space to totally absorb Boozer’s contract. The team that comes the closest, the Thunder, are about $7.8 million under the cap, that’s about $4.8 million shy of Boozer’s salary.
by kris247 on Nov 5, 2009 5:56 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
#2
Two things to consider…
1- Tyrus Thomas is really, really immature (or at least it seems that way). So you have to question how much time, if any, he’d get under slow. If there aren’t other options, slow would make some up. Move AK to the 4. Go small. Anything. It’s slow, after all.
2- I don’t think it’s possible for The Koof to get less time. As for Fesenko, slow seems determined to stick with his “against true centers” only plan…
True Blue Jazz
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
by UtesFan89 on Nov 5, 2009 5:59 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
True Blue Jazz
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
by UtesFan89 on Nov 5, 2009 8:24 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
For your sake,
I’m going to pretend you didn’t propose a trade involving Kyle.
by DaniellelovesKK on Nov 5, 2009 6:30 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
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