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The Precious

Gordon Hayward is our prized rookie, and we’ve waited a long time for someone like him. Well, maybe not exactly like him – but someone with his pedigree. As Jazz fans we love our underdog stories of guys who ‘make it’ despite some people who say that he can’t. Instead of being a part of a socially and economically disadvantaged class, this guy instead comes from a middle class family. His obstacle was not crime and rising above his surrounding, it was growing out of being a tennis pro into a basketball one. He still had detractors at every step, and led a low profile school within a few millimeters from knocking off one of the biggest college basketball powerhouses in the NCAA Finals. It’s hard not to root for this guy, especially as a Jazz fan – we have a history of getting something good from the best player on the losing team in the NCAA finals. Unfortunately for him, and us, Gordon Hayward is always going to be something more, or less, than who he is as a player.

Why?

Because he’s ‘The Precious’.

Star-divide

Why ‘The Precious’?

In J.R.R. Tolkien’s ‘The Lord of the Rings’ , the Precious is the ultimate MacGuffin. Allusions to technological advancement in warfare, and a destruction of the environment aside, the One Ring is the Precious. It is a gift of great power, but it’s power is so great that even the best of men lose their minds trying to possess it. The Precious was the unrestricted New York Knicks first round draft pick – forged by the Dark Lord Isiah Thomas himself. We had the rights to the Precious. Many teams came for it, but it was ourses. It blongeses to us! We didn’t use it in any trades, we didn’t use it to get any good players. We held onto it, in our dark cave, waiting . . . waiting . . . for the day that it would be ourses!

Each Jazz fan had their own idea of the type of player, most likely a very high Lotto pick, that we’d get for free because of the Knicks’ inability to run a franchise. I doubt that many of us had imagined that The Precious would turn out to be a baby faced kid who was afraid to shoot the ball. Alas, the pick that was the Precious became the player, Gordon Hayward.

The Pick was coveted by all, but we kept it close, we kept it safe. It’s ours now. And we may or may not like exactly what it is now – but we hope that we can use its’ power to augment our own. That’s why Gordon Hayward is The Precious. And that’s why it’s a great disservice that for a very long time, at least for Jazz fans, we’re going to remember him as the product of that Knicks pick – despite his own natural learning curve in the NBA.

Expectations

When you are a franchise that is always in the hunt for good playoff position, and usually pick in the last third of the draft, there are very few expectations for your draft pick. There are even less when you draft a guy in the second round from some back water European nation, and you’ve never even seen this dude play before. But what happens when you get a free Lotto pick – one that would still be a TOP 10 pick? Is it a disservice to that player, that player’s pedigree, and that player’s $2.4 million dollar contract to expect NOTHING from him?

Or on the flip side, are we expecting too much from someone who is supposed to be worth that much? Top 10 picks are supposed to be the best picks. They are supposed to be NBA ready, and have the talent to make bad teams into good ones – surely they’d be able to make good ones into great teams, right? This is the crux of the argument – should we expect anything from Gordon Hayward? Or expect nothing. I’ve heard arguments for both sides. Some say that the Jazz don’t even NEED anything from him this season – if so, does that give him a free pass to ‘Chill like a Bosh’ this season? On the other hand, if he was picked among peers that would be good enough to make an impact this season, their rookie seasons, shouldn’t he also be equal to the task?

My opinion of what to expect from Gordon Hayward (in principle) vacillates on a weekly basis. Similarly so, my opinion of if he’s doing well or not does as well. I know in my heart’s heart that he’ll be a solid pro. I know that I want him to succeed. I also know that even on a team with only four guys with traditional wing height, he’s still getting very little playing time. As I mentioned previously, the greatest currency for young players in the NBA is confidence. Some players have ‘swagger’, and know they are good. Others – specifically those who always had doubters and worked hard to get where they are partly because of the satisfaction of proving people wrong – have less innate swagger. They need playing time to justify where they are. The problem is that it’s difficult for young players on veteran teams to do enough to justify the playing time they need.

Because I think Gordon Hayward isn’t a bad player (and perhaps worthy of regular playing time), let’s look to see how he fares compared to his peers – highly productive wings who were taken in the lotto in his draft year.

Production vs. Draft Class

Note: For every chart, the data is from the 1st 20 games of each player’s NBA career


I said I wasn’t going to pull any punches a few weeks ago, so I won’t. Some people have said that it’s okay for Gordon to suck so far because the rest of his peers are doing so as well. Well, that’s clearly not the case. None of these guys are Michael Jordan, that’s for certain; however, some of them are actually playing well. Sure, a lot of these guys are on poor teams, but the 2nd round pick who plays for the Knicks (a team that’s in playoff contention) is killing it. If THAT guy (some no name dude) can be killing it – is it out of the realm of possibility that we should expect Hayward to be doing better than a 3.2 Go Rating?

The easy counter argument is that – well – these guys are playing on crappy teams, and they aren’t winning! Also, this draft class sucks, you can’t compare Hayward to these guys! Fine. You may feel free to say that. Let’s look at more players like Hayward . . . and see where he compares.

Production vs. ‘Similar’ players from previous Drafts

Here is a bunch of guys that are like Hayward, they are all Lotto picks who are swings. Well, everyone except Matt Harpring who was picked 15th, and Kyle Korver, who was a 2nd rounder. I put Korver in here because some Jazz fans may be familiar with him and want to know how he compares to Hayward’s first twenty games of his career. As you can see below, the average draft position for this group was 1st round, 10th pick. Hayward was the 9th pick. We could assume that he should be at least average in this group. Again, this was for the first 20 games of each of these guys’ careers.


Some of these guys were out of the league in a jiffy, while others were able to use a strong college experience to fuel their formative NBA years. It’s a diverse group. There’s hope in this group. One guy that’s very close to Hayward is Austin Croshere, at least statistically. He became a rotation player. Most of these guys did as well. Yet, most of these guys were way more assertive than Gordon. We’re going to need to see more of what we saw last night from him.

Of course, only one of these guys was a rookie on the Jazz – Hayward – and the argument is that ‘These stats are invalid because it’s apples to oranges’. I know the Jazz system is hard on rookies, and part of Hayward’s initial suckitude may be due in part to that. Fine. Let’s look at other swings who played for the Jazz.

Production vs. other Jazz Rookies


The Gold, Silver, Bronze, and uh, Brown, colors for the drafted columns are there to show what part of the draft where these guys from. Only Hayward was a Top 10 pick. Keep that in mind, or his $2.4 million contract, when looking at these stats. All of these guys played under Jerry Sloan. All of these guys played under this system. All of these guys played with the same plays. All of these guys, save for Pavlovic and Snyder, played alongside a Hall of Fame point guard. All of these guys played with a solid scoring forward. Each season the Jazz were trying to win as many games as possible, and not tanking, nor where they giving minutes out to rookies just for fun. This is as apples to apples as we can get – save for the actual make up of the depth charts (which always have rookies at the bottom).

Guess who’s near the bottom of the pile? D-Steve and C.J. were teens in their rookie seasons. Jamie Watson sucked. Kirk Snyder is a head case. Who is right there with them? It’s The Precious.

What’s eating Gilbert Grape Gordon Hayward?

So, we’ve seen the stats. They don’t look too good for The Precious. Whatever ideas of him we had from watching him play well at Butler, or even in the Summer league, are not matching up with reality. Even harder on him, whatever ideas and dreams we had from the Unprotected Knicks pick are really far from reality. A Top 10 Lotto pick is supposed to be good to go, not a project like a one-dimensional late 1st round shooting guard like Morris Almond. He’s not supposed to be a European draft and stash like a much maligned 7’1 center who shall remain nameless. The Precious was supposed to be, at the very least, as good as Ronnie Brewer (a guy who can’t shoot) as a rookie.

If anything, his production in the first 20 games of his career looks more like Morris Almond (who is playing in Europe right now) more than any of us would like to admit – and Almond only played one game with Deron, while The Precious has started a few and just ended one with him.

I think a big part of it is confidence. And some of the numbers show a severe decline in his production (both these stats do not require time as an issue):

To me a huge deal HAS to be confidence, as he’s the same player – the same LEADER who took a rag tag band to the NCAA finals. The only main difference is that he’s not getting enough burn to store up experience in his ‘confidence meter’ that helps him calm down and play his game. Some people think that he shouldn’t get more playing time because he sucks. (The stats don’t say he’s great, after all) Some people think that a little token playing time in order to get him back into productive shape isn’t that great an evil to bear. Playing time is tricky though, and a smart guy told me that NBA Coaches do not coach in a democracy. I guess that means that you have to play the vets over the guys with a potential to a) get better and b) actually be on the team in 3 years. Few people seem to care about that point though, after all, Sloan gets a pass by saying in training camp "Aw shucks, I guess I should have played _____ more last season." He’s on record admitting to having not played Okur, Williams, Brewer and others as much as he should have. I guess he doesn’t have to learn from his mistakes either, because he has full support from the front office. (Power without any checks and balances prevents people from seeing their flaws)

Do I think that Sloan has to play everyone fairly? No. Do I think that playing Hayward 20 a game is necessary? No. Lastly, do I think that playing him big minutes at the risk of losing games is going to make him an All-Star? No. But one of the largest contributing factor to such a prolonged development for C.J. Miles was having invested so little playing time in him as a younger player in favor of Derek Fisher, Gordan Giricek, and Matt Harpring. Miles could only get on the floor if someone else was injured, if you don’t remember. Now he’s a rotation player – finally. I’d like to see a return on our younger players that don’t take half of Yoda’s life time to mature. Maybe Hayward can suck a little less if he got better. Maybe he could get better if he played more?

Obviously this is not a unanimous opinion. After all, we’ve had other young players on the team who do not get consistent minutes – and some fans would protest them ever getting consistent minutes. I know that I wouldn’t be good at my job if I never got hands on experience in the real thing. There’s only so much practice can do for you. Perhaps this is the case with some of our players as well?

Looking forward

I think we all saw two things last night that we had not yet seen. The first is that Hayward can play on this team at NBA speed and contribute. The second is that he can get playing time and NOT hurt our team’s chances at winning (the dreaded consequence of playing a younger player who isn’t 30+ years old). His jam to seal the game was a great thing to see – hopefully he can build on it, and hopefully his coaches will allow him to do so by playing him more consistent minutes. E.g. Not ‘CJing’ him by yo-yoing his playing time; and especially not ‘Fesenkoing’ him – which is after a game where you get a double double vs. Yao Ming, you only play 1:46 the next game (no foul trouble excuse here), and a DNP-CD the next game after that.

Hopefully the Jazz coaches respect Hayward more than they have some of their other younger players. After all, it would be unwise to upset The Preciousssssss.

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Pressure,

It can create diamonds or it can create dust.

We need to find out what we have in Hayward. Obviously I’ve voiced that all along. I want him to get minutes. Coaching isn’t a democracy but this is one of the better picks Sloan has gotten in his tenure here. You’d think he’d at least wanna see what he has in the boy before DNP-CD. At least that’s what I hope.

I never expected Hayward to be a Malone, Stockton, D-will or AK.

I did expect him to be a Horny though.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Dec 23, 2010 12:39 AM MST reply actions  

I learned it from a smart guy

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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Dec 23, 2010 12:58 PM MST up reply actions  

DPR earned his minutes because of how he performed

that’s all I have to say about that

(another fantastic write up btw; have been waiting for this one. despite opinions to the contrary – there are some very decent wing players that will come out of this draft class).

yojimbo is jazzed

by jazzed on Dec 23, 2010 1:29 AM MST reply actions  

some notes, while i write in my car in the parking lot of the train station in Windsor, Canada . . .

20 games, why that number? That’s about 1/4th of the season

I think that Hayward is at a disadvantage right now because the Jazz don’t play jungle monkey ball, he actually has to learn a system, a system that a number of vets don’t know yet.

Also he hasn’t gotten all the mins that some of the guys in his draft class have recieved. This hurts his percieved production when being compared to them.

This was supposed to be a critical look at Gordon, and when I was devising this post, my original plan was to kill him in it. I’ve softened on Hayward. He’s not getting it done right now — but did we expect him too right off the bat?

Lastly, most importantly, I think developing rookies and younger players is like managing your more junior employees. A head hunter may find an older guy who can do the job better, and you may feel like investing resources on him (the resource here is playing time), but if he’s not going to stick around that investment never pays out. The opposite is true, the younger guy who could have benefitted from that investment (playing time) doesn’t improve at a quick enough pace to be work keeping him or her around for x number of years. In fact, in some cases in order to get something from a player, you need to put something in them.

This doesn’t always have to mean playing big time mins during crunch time in the NBA. There’s this thing called the NBA developmental league. Maybe it’s ‘wrong’ to put a Top 10 lotto pick on the flash, that’s fine. What about Evans though? CJ and Fes both played in the NBA DL (Fes even averaged some good numbers there, inc 60 ft% iirc). So did the Koof (but his handlers were not happy about that, according to reporters I’ve been lucky enough to develope relationships with).

Back on point though, I didn’t like how some older guys ate away finite resources (playing time) while younger players languished on the bench. It’s not always clear cut like “the vet is better”. If you try to tell me that Jarron Collins > Fesenko, esp after Fes had a double double vs. Yao Ming then I think you are stuck in the year 2001. When has Jarron ever had a double double in an NBA game, let alone vs. a health Yao?

I didn’t like how long it took for CJ to become a rotation player. I don’t want to see these mistakes repeated over and over again under the guise that ’we’d lose games’. You know what super Jazz fans? We’ve lost games – home games – where the young guys didn’t even play in. You may not have noticed that our starters start off slow and are just as inconsistent as the young guys are. It was the bench, led by younger guys like CJ and Fes that kept the Jazz in it in Miami. They didn’t get the glory, but they got the Jazz back in the game. Where’s the respect for that? Imagine how much better they’d be today if they got more PT back in those previous seasons where playing guys like Fisher at the 2, or Collins at all were more important?

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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Dec 23, 2010 2:13 AM MST reply actions  

Jarron's Career Double Doubles Count

It’s 2. In 531 Career games.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=NKudf

Fesenko, who didn’t start early in his career like Jarron did, has half of that in less than 1/5th the total games. (don’t even get me started on mpg averages either, Collins’ averages 2x the mpg over his career)

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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Dec 23, 2010 2:19 AM MST up reply actions  

Haywards gotta play better....

no excuses. If he needs to figure out how it’s done, he’s got no better teacher’s than Dwill and Millsap. One was a lottery pick in a similar situation, the other a hard worker who has had to CONTINUALLY improve his game to finally reach starter status. More minutes? Please. Neither Dwill or Millsap got an exceptionally large amount of minutes. And the minutes they did get were at least partially because they played fairly good their rookie years.

by MacArthur_ on Dec 23, 2010 6:09 AM MST reply actions  

Some facts . . . you know . . .

Deron Williams’ First 20 games of his career (Nov 2nd, 2005 – Dec 9th, 2005) he averaged 30.4 mpg. He was the best talent, but that team had 2 veteran PGs on the roster ‘ahead’ of him. (Palacio, McLeod)

Paul Millsap’s first 20 games of his career (Nov 1st, 2006 – Dec 8th, 2006) he averaged 16.5 mpg. That’s not starters minutes, but I would call it ‘large’ compared to what some other Rookies get to play. Of course, Millsap wasn’t the best PF on the roster (unlike Deron), and wasn’t a top draft pick (unlike Deron), and had a number of really good guys on the team who could play that spot (Carlos Boozer, Mehmet Okur, Andrei Kirilenko) - YET he still got 16.5 mpg.

These are just facts. Not opinions, or half remembered points of view.

Over the same time period, Hayward is getting 8.7 mpg, and there are not too many awesome wing guys ahead of him. Raja Bell was super inconsistent early this season. C.J. is the 6th man off the bench. AK is playing more minutes. Deron and Price have been playing some sg for the Jazz — but there’s one of the four wings who may be useful who is being under used.

I feel BAD making the case for Hayward because I wanted to write a negative article here, but previously I’ve been attacked for being “TOO NEGATIVE”. I guess when I write positive things, I’m too nice as well.

I think that Hayward hasn’t made the impact necessary as a Top 10 Draft Pick / The Precious. That said, he may not be the Deron type, or the Millsap type. Millsap has a skill in college that he was good at that is one of the few carry over skills from the NCAA to the NBA (rebounding). Deron is the point guard / leader, so he needs to be on the court to do his thing. A wing player seems to have a harder time getting on the floor as a rookie. Part of this has to be sue to the difficulty of being a wing in the NBA (a skill position), and the systematic difficulty of being a wing in this system.

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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Dec 23, 2010 9:16 AM MST up reply actions  

I think your right on

I think you are right on with your analysis. He just plain needs more consistent minutes. Ignoring stats lets look at what this kid has gone through as joining the Jazz.

First he gets drafted with a high draft pick, but the home crowd boos the pick. Not so big of a deal by itself but it has to affect the kid. Then in one of the first games of the season he gets berated and embarrassed by the star player of the team on national TV. How does Jerry Sloan immediately respond to the incident? He claims it is no big deal, but then goes on to essentially bench the kid. He goes from getter 10-15 minutes per game to not getting any or if he is lucky two. All the while being asked over and over again by the media about the incident.

Is it any wonder that Hayward has confidence issues now?

I have noticed that he has played two pretty decent games on this road trip. I think it helps him a little being away from home. Being in front of the home crowd increase the pressure on him to prove himself and not make mistakes.

Plain and simple all the kid needs is 10 consistent minutes per game and by All star break he will become a great contributor like it looked he would be during spring ball. He just needs to rebuild his confidence. Hopefully the way he finished off this game will help.

by Daniel Smith on Dec 23, 2010 1:17 PM MST up reply actions  

Take into account when Sloan plays him

It’s in matchups he has the best chance to succeed in, against teams the Jazz should beat, and largely have.

Even when Gordo has been a no-show in some of those, essentially leaving the team playing 4-on-5, the guys have won.

Sloan’s timing in WHEN to play Hayward have been spot on, letting his game grow at a rate consistent with success in the system without sacrificing wins. With a guy like Hayward that’s sooo young, doesn’t know the system, and may have come out too early, but has a high Bball IQ,

There have been some close calls, like last night against the T-Wolves, but Sloan, while getting bashed in this piece for NOT playing the young guys, DID vs Minny. And look at the result. Hayward dagger dunk.

It’s hard to argue that Sloan’s not doing it right after that. It doesn’t mean Hayward should now take away minutes from other guys that have earned them with their loyalty and hard work over the years.

And take this little nugget into account, meaning I DEFINITELY don’t want Hayward taking minutes from CJ on a regular basis: Since last season the Jazz are 15-0 in the regular season when Miles scores 19 or more points, 16-1 including the playoffs. Drop Hayward into CJ’s slot too often and it compromises the ability of the team to win, unless CJ can put up those points in less than 20minutes/game, a stretch.

by Clintonite33 on Dec 23, 2010 1:34 PM MST up reply actions  

Not really

I don’t really agree with that. The first game of the season Gordon Hayward gets called off the bench to play. His first assignment was … Carmelo Anthony. Hardly an assignment meant to build confidence.

Then he doesn’t get much meaningful time before he is forced to start and match up against Vince Carter (sure he is not what he used to be).

It looks to me like Sloan has only been willing to play him with the first teem, matching up against the opposing team’s starters. CJ is playing on the second team because he can provide the offensive spark that unit needs. If you replaced CJ with GH the second team would not be able to score well.

In my opinion GH should get 10 minutes with the second team. You could do this by:

1st Team – Deron, Raja, CJ, PM, AJ
2nd Team Watson, Price, GH, AK, Okur

Moving AK and adding Okur to the second unit should give them enough offensive spark to get things done, adding CJ to the first unit may help us not start out so slow.

by Daniel Smith on Dec 23, 2010 3:39 PM MST up reply actions  

Sure Sloan threw him to the wolves a couple times early on

Artest and Durant too -wanted to see how he’d respond. Not well. Probably to get those butterflies out his system as soon as possible.

Lately the bulk of his minutes are coming against the likes of the Hornets, Warriors, and Wolves.

by Clintonite33 on Dec 23, 2010 3:57 PM MST up reply actions  

so you are just changing your answer or what here, dude?

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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Dec 24, 2010 4:12 AM MST up reply actions  

You're right....

….I didn’t really look up any stats, I was just going from personal memory. But the point I was kinda making was that maybe, just maybe, the reason Hayward isn’t getting playing time is because he isn’t earning it. As a whole, he’s not averaging a whole lot of minutes. But he HAS had a few games where he’s played a decent amount of minutes. And in most of those cases he hasn’t capitalized. Before I continue, I’ll throw out the qualifier that I understand Hayward is a rookie. I’m not expecting him to be some super phenomenal wing or anything. I’m not worried about his quality as a player (yet). I’m just saying, it wouldn’t hurt if he contributed something more frequently. That would probably help get him more minutes.

11/15 vs OKC: He played 22 minutes. Made 4 points, shot 66%, had 2 assists, 1 steal, and 2 fouls. I will barely consider his stats for this game admissible (was this his first start? I don’t remember). He probably had jitters, for sure. But he played nearly half the game and that was his tally. No big deal. He’s a rook. He’s learning the system. He had the jitters. I’m not too concerned about this game. Just an example.

12/10 – 12/17 vs Orlando, Dallas, Golden State and New Orleans. This is stretch is my main example. The New Orleans game he had a decent scoring night, which bumped up his average in that department, but over the course of those 4 games he averaged 14 minutes per game. His average line per game? He averaged 2 points per game on 33.3% shooting, .25 blocks, 0 steals, 1.25 turnovers, 2.5 fouls, 1.75 rebounds, and 0 assists. Zero assists! These numbers are slightly inflated by the New Orleans game. But as a whole, those are some pretty bad numbers. I realize it’s a small sample size but this is my whole point here! He needed to capitalize on the minutes he got during this 4 game stretch, and he really didn’t. His average numbers there tell me that:
A. He hasn’t learned the system. Which is fine! Even Jefferson hasn’t yet and that guys like a 6 year vet and gets a lot more playing time.
B. He’s fouling too much. We know refs are tough on rooks, but nonetheless, 2.5 fouls on an average of 14 minutes per game? He’d foul out if he played 30 minutes at that rate. How can you give a guy more time if there’s a danger he’d foul out before the end of the third quarter?
C. He’s not shooting well. 33% on field goals? I know he has jitters but….wing players gotta shoot better than that.

So thats that. If I was Sloan, I’d look at his play during this stretch and say to myself “hey, this kid isn’t ready yet”. The heart is there, but not the play, yet. And the thing is, I know the skills are there.

He had like 5 points and 1 rebound vs. Dallas on 12/3, granted they were mostly free throws, but that’s a part of the game too. And he did well.

And the minnesota game the other night (which I hope is a real confidence builder), he had 5 points, 3 assists, 3 rebounds, no fouls, on turnovers, and shot 100% from the field and the line on only 12 minutes of play.

by MacArthur_ on Dec 24, 2010 6:47 AM MST up reply actions  

One more thing....

….I agree with you about feeling sorry for the guy. I’m sure he’s feeling the pressure. Between being picked in the lottery, being booed by the fans, getting hassled by Dwill the first few games, and dealing with the normal growing pains rookies have, I’m sure he’s stressed.

by MacArthur_ on Dec 24, 2010 6:56 AM MST up reply actions  

Another note - while I'm in Toronto right now

I included Landry Fields as that ‘wild card’, point that the draft is a crap shoot in some ways. He may be the “Wesley Matthews” of this draft class (but was actually drafted). Maybe he has the right skill set to mesh with the offense that team is running / the right player with a chance to get playing time. Also, he’s producing. This cannot be avoided. His Shooting Worth (aka points per shot) is at 1.39 right now, in this data set. Karl Malone’s career number is in that neighborhood. Landry is going to taper off as the sample size of data increases (more games are played), but right now he has been producing.

And our precious Gordon Hayward has not. (The ‘why’? is the next question — either he sucks, or he’s not getting the playing time to be good, or something else entirely . . . )

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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Dec 23, 2010 9:28 AM MST reply actions  

A word on Fish, Giri, and Harp

You wanted CJ to get minutes over any or all of these 3 guys, but each brought something to the Jazz that a 20-year-old Miles couldn’t.

Fisher is largely credited by Deron for his development, and let’s face it, Fisher is legendary and brought oodles of championship experience with him. The Jazz probably don’t make the WCFs that year without him. Raja is the equivalent of that on this year’s team, and to play Hayward you have to take minutes from him. I credit Bell largely with bringing the best defense this Jazz team has played in a decade to Bell, and I’d not take that away from them now.

Giricek was BY FAR the best 3-pt shooter on the Jazz that year at .426%. Miles was shooting .219 from 3, even starting 13 games that year. Second best 3-shooter was Okur at .384%, and after that the Jazz’s 3pt% fell off a cliff. Sloan had to play Gordan if the Jazz wanted any threat whatsoever to spread the floor at the wing. It was necessary for him to be out there or teams would simply let Utah shoot themselves out of games.

Harpring was easily the best choice for defense from the swing spots for the Jazz that year when it came to anyone too lengthy for Fish. And the NBA has been wing-centric since the Michael Jordan days. You have to have a defender to bother those many opposing, offensive wings. This was Harp’s niche, and he filled it well. He’ll always be known as one of the toughest Jazz players in the franchise’s history.

And look where CJ is now. And he’s still mighty young with a long, bright future in front of him for the Jazz. He’s killing it for the team this year, clearly a vital cog in a potentially deep playoff run.

And the irony is, that you want Hayward to play now, something that would take minutes away from Miles just when he’s finally developed into what you wanted him to be 4 years ago.

CJ was 20 then (Hayward’s age). The franchise, and especially the coaching staff, saw something in CJ that wouldn’t allow the brass to move him, even though fans wanted him gone, many of them badly. The coaching staff gets deserved credit for developing CJ into what he is now; clearly ready to play a big role in the team’s success.

So to second-guess what they’ve done with Miles, who is so happy here he never wants to move, seems silly to me.

If Hayward has “it” the staff will do the same for him, and Sloan saw something in him in the win against Minnesota that kept him on the floor for the entire 4th quarter. It was prescient the way Sloan rode him right to the dagger dunk that sealed the victory.

I’m not trading Ws for development, especially when the coaching staff has already proven they know exactly what they’re doing. CJ Miles is the proof.

by Clintonite33 on Dec 23, 2010 12:06 PM MST reply actions  

Fewer Minutes

The first person that needs to play fewer minutes on this team whether we want to admit it or not is Deron Williams. He has played more minutes (1139) then any other player in the NBA to this point in the season. No one can replace what he does on the court but if he keeps playing minutes at this rate he is not going to be around for the playoffs. It is just too many minutes over an 82 game season.

Raja Bell is getting older he could use dropping a few minutes per game to reduce injury.

Pull a few minutes from Price and Watson and you can easily create a consistent 10 minutes per game for Hayward without touching CJ’s minutes.

My 2 cents the Jazz will be a lot better off come playoffs if Hayward has gotten consistent playing time now early in the season. The veterans will be less worn out and injury prone, and Hayward will have developed to be a contributor.

by Daniel Smith on Dec 23, 2010 1:31 PM MST up reply actions  

Problem with this is...

If you want Deron to play less minutes then it means more for Watson and Price, so you can’t do that. Unless you want Hayward running point…

by Clintonite33 on Dec 23, 2010 1:36 PM MST up reply actions  

watson can't play 2-3 more mins a game? really? he's that bad?

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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Dec 23, 2010 1:36 PM MST up reply actions  

I want Watson playing more minutes, not less

But that does take away minutes for Hayward, whom, for the record, I think is playing the right amount of minutes in the situations he’s been in thus far

by Clintonite33 on Dec 23, 2010 1:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Actually, why don't we TAKE AWAY 1-2 mins from Deron at SG, if we had to do anything like that then?

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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Dec 23, 2010 1:40 PM MST up reply actions  

And give em to Hayward?

When Deron plays the 2 it’s to play Watson at the 1 in situations where the team is usually behind and need his exp in the system to get ahead

by Clintonite33 on Dec 23, 2010 1:41 PM MST up reply actions  

I think we're brain storming onto something here . . .

Not making a definitive rotation change.

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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Dec 23, 2010 1:42 PM MST up reply actions  

Sometimes

Sloan’s rotations boggle my mind and infuriate me. But it’s hard to argue with the team’s ultimate success, especially when taking into account that their talent level and draft picks tend to be so low

All I can do is believe that Sloan saw something in a particular matchup or practice that we didn’t

by Clintonite33 on Dec 23, 2010 1:46 PM MST up reply actions  

Like Elson for instance

He should be playing more minutes based on the team’s success when he’s been out there. My theory is this:

Sloan sees that Elson is good to go at any time called upon now, so those minutes go to guys that might need more reps, or more reps together as a unit on the floor, for future consideration

by Clintonite33 on Dec 23, 2010 1:50 PM MST up reply actions  

Deron Plays a lot of 2

Deron plays a lot of minutes with Watson or Price playing point. You can take some of those minutes away. The rotations would have to change around so that Deron is in at critical moments … either way I’m just saying we need to reduce the load on Deron and find a way to develop Hayward at the same time.

by Daniel Smith on Dec 23, 2010 2:33 PM MST up reply actions  

People are going to shank me for this but:

What if we made the starting rotation- Williams, Bell, Hayward, Millsap, Jefferson

and the backup- Watson, Price, Miles, Ak, Memo

Hayward would get more playing time and our bench would be much better with Ak and Miles coming off of it. That would give us one of the better benchs in the league considering they could all be starters on different teams (except for Price). It would also take some pressure off CJ to be “the man” on that second rotation with AK and Memo runnin around with him.

Sloan manipulates who’s playing in the Sf/Pf/C so much when he subs people in I think everyone would be able to get better minutes and Hayward would get a little bit more playing time. Plus, it kinda mixes up our starting rotation. Maybe Hayward can help us get off to better first quarters than we have been if he gets more playing time (I know the games he started this year haven’t really changed how well our first quarters are).

Anyways just an idea.

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by ForTheLove on Dec 23, 2010 2:15 PM MST reply actions  

Interesting idea

I think CJ relishes his role as “the man” of the 2nd unit, though. I know I love it

by Clintonite33 on Dec 23, 2010 2:25 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm sure he does,

but having Ak slashing around and Memo spreading the floor for him would probably make it a little easier on him as well.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Dec 23, 2010 2:33 PM MST up reply actions  

I LOVE this

and have been thinking the same thing for a month or so. . .

I like how Hayward is looking to pass first and is not focused on scoring. I believe the current first team has too many hands in the pie – too many guys out there who look to shoot first and it is why the offense never gets moving with the first team.

I wish Sloan would give it a shot.

yojimbo is jazzed

by jazzed on Dec 23, 2010 3:03 PM MST up reply actions  

Memo has to be 100% first

And he’s not able to play at all right now

by Clintonite33 on Dec 23, 2010 3:11 PM MST up reply actions  

So put in Elson

or Fes until Memo can go….

I dont think that should be a reason to hold up changing things around a little bit.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Dec 23, 2010 6:00 PM MST up reply actions  

I like this rotation

it might help our first quarter funk. Try mixing it up untill they find the right rotation

by EcERyda69 on Dec 23, 2010 5:13 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

Excellent Article, Except

for the (admittedly limited) criticism of Sloan.

I think one of the reasons Jerry has been such an awesome coach for over two decades is precisely because he doesn’t cater to the “developing talent” mentality. In fact, that’s exactly what he said himself;

“When I coached Chicago for three seasons, I coached talent…and I got fired for it. In Utah, I am coaching the team to win as many games as possible.”

by IronPalm on Dec 23, 2010 10:27 PM MST reply actions  

I think that it's not against the law to get better at what you do, no matter how good you are, or how long you've had your job

I think taking 6 years to get something out of CJ is poor management. it doesn’t prove the point / validate the system if the guy is eventually useful. not being able to see that is homerism. I love jerry sloan, but i want him to be better. Does anyone else even remember him saying in preseason (every few years or so) “I should have played _ more last season?” Or do you people just gloss over that because we were a 5th seed who started the playoffs on someone elses’ home court and that’s good enough for you?

I think that CJ should have been this good in his 3rd or 4th season. Giricek isn’t walking through that door, guys.

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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Dec 24, 2010 4:16 AM MST up reply actions  

um....

I agree and disagree. I agree that Sloan should have played CJ a bit more his first few seasons. But CJ being good his 3rd or 4th season?? I dunno bout that, if you look at his early career numbers, it’s peppered with typical rookie stats. Low shooting percentage, and lots of fouls. Sloan hates pointless fouls and I can’t say I blame him. If you give a player 20 minutes of playing time and he comes in and gets 3 fouls in one quarter, that one player almost single handedly puts the entire team in the penalty the rest of the quarter. I stand by the belief that high school players typically take a bit longer to develop outta the draft than college ball players. Even the great Kobe wasn’t an instant success.

And I also remember many, many times in CJ’s early career when I would wonder why the hell the Jazz even bothered keeping CJ Miles, because I WASN’T impressed. But in several post game interviews, when asked about Miles, Sloan would usually say something along the lines of CJ having alot of talent, but just having to learn how to use it. Sometimes Sloan would be the only one defending CJ from what I remember. Anyway, I ain’t some Sloan homer. The guy makes mistakes. He’s just an old, stubborn, SOB like many other coaches out there.

by MacArthur_ on Dec 24, 2010 7:18 AM MST up reply actions  

For Someone who Thinks Sloan is a Great Coach

you sure criticize him a lot, and keep suggesting ways he can improve at a job he has done as well as anyone for over 20 years.

Has he made mistakes? Sure, every coach has, from Auerbach to Jackson to Poppovich. But I don’t get where you get this absolute certainty that he screwed up with CJ or anyone else for that matter, all because of some polite quote at training camp.

Look, CJ is an okay player, but he wouldn’t crack 20 minutes a night on at least 20 teams in the NBA right NOW. And yes, that’s six years after he got drafted as a rail-thin, super-raw 18 year-old that was barely even considered one of the top 25 players in high school that year.

You forget, but he was a real threat to go undrafted.

Dude, I am anything but a homer, and think Sloan is far from infallible, but I don’t see how he can be criticized with your certainty on his handling of young players, especially CJ and Hayward.

by IronPalm on Dec 24, 2010 8:22 AM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Here's my take on Gordon Hayward.

The jazz don’t need him to contribute this year. They can win without him. This whole debate is really about the age old question, “should a team draft for the present or for potential?” I am of the idea that you should always draft the best player available, positional needs be damned and that you draft what you know a player will be rather than what you hope he will become.

KOC asked the fans to wait 2 years to evaluate the pick of Gordon Hayward, which tells me two things: Their is a lot of risk in picking Hayward, and also, the Jazz see Hayward being a positive player in the future, not necessarily this season.

Don’t get me wrong. They expect him to compete and learn and put in extra time in the gym and play hard and well when he is called upon, but they expect him to really produce in years 3 and on. You can place any expectations you want on a player, but that doesn’t mean those expectations are fair or helpful. Just because Hayward was a ninth pick, doesn’t mean anything. It actually means that he has as good a chance as being out of the league as being a contributor on a team in the next 5 years.

In the past 14 years, 7 of the #9 picks were out of the league or playing no minutes within 5 years. For every Stoudemire or Nowitzki, there is a Mike Sweetney, or Ed O’bannon.

And that is why I hate the “give him minutes and he’ll figure it out” argument. It is a false concept. Sure, some players have responded to minutes and increased time and confidence building. But lots of players get lots of minutes and they aren’t good. Maybe you could argue that they are thrown into the fire too fast and lose all confidence and any chance of producing.

Ed Obannon played 20 minutes a game his rookie year and he was terrible. He was out after two years.
Rodney White played 22 mins a game his sophomore season and in his 4th season he was traded 3 times and then out of the league.
Or what’s up with Ike Diogu? Should have been great and has multiple chances to show his stuff.
So you can’t say that increase minutes helps the development of a lottery pick. It’s just not always true.

It’s a case by case basis. You can’t say that Hayward has produced when given the chance other than his great 12 minutes the other night. If you want to succeed in the NBA, you have to take advantage of the opportunities you have, whether you are the #1 pick or a walk on Gerry Neal. And that includes practice. There is nothing to replace the actual thing, but Hayward is learning in practice and I am guessing that Sloan has seen things he likes, otherwise, he wouldn’t play Hayward one minute in a real game. Sloan doesn’t do favors. He rewards hard work, not talent. And that is one of the reasons that 2nd round picks do so well with the Jazz. Sloan rewards effort and work, not potential and investment.

The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.

by clarkpojo on Dec 24, 2010 11:46 PM MST reply actions  

You can make that argument for a few years then.

As long as Williams, Bell, AK, Miles, Millsap, Jefferson, and Memo are on the team….

They’ll probably all continue to get playing time over Hayward. Just like Miles kept being put behind other guys, just like Fes kept being put behind other guys etc.

At what point do you say: “Oh, Okay we need to develop the rookie,” or do you never say it and just keep forcing him to play garbage minutes or be third string unless there are injuries?

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Dec 25, 2010 9:32 PM MST up reply actions  

There's a huge difference between getting 5 minutes here and there and just riding the bench.

I actually think Miles is the perfect example. Every year, he got several opportunities to play quality minutes or even start. I think he started 13 games each his second and third year, but he didn’t reallly play very well. Still got 11 mins a game those seasons. The last two seasons, he has played a lot and started to play really well. He was “developed” really well. Stevenson and Almond were also given chances, but they just didn’t take advantage.

The Jazz are actually really good at “developing” their young guys rather than just giving them time and sacrificing wins. Deron Williams hated being a bench player to start his career, but he admits now that it helped him. Hayward will get his chances in the next 3-4 years, but saying that more playing time is what he needs to be more productive is false and a cop out. That is my point.

The ideal situation is to develop your young guys while not sacrificing a single win. I think Utah is one of the best in the business at doing this.

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by clarkpojo on Dec 25, 2010 10:12 PM MST up reply actions  

I agree,

But I also think just assuming a loss is going to happen because rookies are getting more playing time is just as dangerous. Have we lost games because of the minutes Hayward has gotten? Is giving him 5 more minutes a game really going to change that much? Maybe, maybe not. Could it help him? Maybe, maybe not.

My main issue is that we are staring out slow in games and its’ getting us behind. I don’t really like playing from behind. So I figured we could try and kill two birds with one stone. Start Hayward and move AK to the second team. Shake things up a bit.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Dec 26, 2010 12:44 AM MST up reply actions  

he only got stats / mins

because either brewer or harpring were injured. it’s not like he would have played at all if the coaches weren’t forced to do it / forced to maintain their rotations by playing the 3rd stringer as a starter for a few games, like hayward got.

I think it is stupid to assume a loss because a younger guy is playing. how the hell did we beat the nuggets in the playoffs w/o 2 starters and playing younger guys then . . . it’s a very flawed argument.

the spurs play rookies and younger guys all the time, yet they have more rings that we do. it’s black magic, i guess. keep making excuses / believe that we develop talent. if it takes 6 years to get something out of a guard in the NBA, how do other teams even have guys like monta ellis who do what they do in year 2 what we’re not even getting from CJ in year 2-5?

As for Morris Almond given a chance? That’s just revisionism at the greatest height.

A shooting guard playing limited mins w/ his ball handling limitations and limted skills of only being able to come off of screens playing with Deron only 1 mins in 0708 ( http://www.82games.com/0708/07UTA7B.HTM ), and only 33 mins in 08/09 ( http://www.82games.com/0809/08UTA6.HTM#5man ) is not giving him a chance.

People need to stop lying about how awesome we are / how fair we are to rookie / young players. It’s not like break throughs are rewarded in this system. I already mentioned the Fes double double vs. Yao Ming that no one talks about (how the next two games he played 1:48, and then got a DNP-CD — that DNP-CD was vs. the Lakers, so it’s not like the other team was too small for us to use him in). As for ALmond, anyone remember that game where both Brewer and CJ were sucking in, and Sloan went to Almond (much the way Benoit and Morris were sucking, so he went to Russell in the playoffs years ago?)

the one where almond got 12 pts (56 fg%) off the bench with 6 boards, 2 blocks, and good defense vs. Kevin Martin? ( http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200812020SAC.html ) The game where he actually played long stretches with Deron, so he could get in a groove and find his spots on offense to help the team WIN a game? The next game he scored 10 points off the bench, but was out of the rotation the very next game, playing his mins with Brevin Knight instead of with the team he was effective with (the team of being placed with players way better than him so he could assume a productive Sasha Vujacic role, and not a ’I’m the man’ role — he’s better when all he has to do is hit open jumpers). Then when Harpring / AK got back, we never saw him again with Deron setting him up.

That’s the “chance” he got, I guess. That one game where he produced and played solid defense on Kevin Martin (we were losing that game when he got in, btw, and Martin was torching our guys on defense).

Stop lying.

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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Dec 26, 2010 10:40 AM MST up reply actions  

also . . .

not sacrificing any wins the last few years have given us ZERO homecourts in the 1st round.

other teams may (heavens no) shore up their talent by making their younger players more game ready / able to produce so that in year 1 they may suck, but in years 2, 3 and 4 those young guys made those teams way deeper - allowing for stronger rotations and more regular season wins -- while keeping their stars fresh for the playoffs.

Do you think Sloan would have played Big Baby at all these last few years (nope, not in sloan shape), yet in his 2nd year he was hitting playoff game winners vs. orlando on the road. how does boston do this? i guess big baby was a lotto pick, right?

Oh wait, we just learned that lotto picks don’t have to produce until 3-4 years after being picked.

it’s dumb to think rookies should do anything at all under their first rookie contract then.

I’m the guy who is wrong, I guess.

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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Dec 26, 2010 10:47 AM MST up reply actions  

Yes, you are Wrong

Are you seriously making an argument that Morris Almond, who isn’t even in the NBA anymore, was a worthwhile NBA player on the bases of ONE single game? Wow. You know, Kwame Brown once had a game where he 29 points and 15 rebounds. Guess that proves he’s a Hall-of-Famer, right?

Also, I can’t get over you comparing CJ Miles to Monta Ellis in terms of development. You might as well compare DeShawn Stevenson to Kobe Bryant. If you had ever watched Ellis and Miles play during their senior years in high school, you would have known that Miles was an afterthought who barely had enough ability to start at Texas as freshman, let alone offer anything to the NBA with his streaky shooting and rail-thin body. (Miles weighed as much as Jeremy Evans does during his rookie season)

Meanwhile, Ellis was a hyper-quick, talented point guard with a solid, NBA-ready body. The reason he fell to the second round were the questions about his awful attitude and work ethic.

The bottom line is that virtually no one expected Miles to still be in the NBA right now, and Almond was a speculative, late first round pick whose lack of athleticism was a huge red flag, despite his great shooting form and intangibles.

Simply put, a lot of these Jazz picks haven’t been very good. Blame Kevin O’Connor for some awful dudgs if you like (although I think he is a top 8 GM overall), but what does this have to do with Sloan, and these guys getting opportunities?

Many of them went to other teams, and failed even worse, if they were signed on at all.

by IronPalm on Dec 26, 2010 3:33 PM MST up reply actions  

If Hayward gets 10 minutes just because, I am claiming a loss. Because Hayward has been that bad this year.

Hayward leads the team by far in negative point differential. For every minute Hayward has played, they have been outscored by half a point. That even factors in Hayward’s gaudy +17 last game. He has been bad. He is last among all rookies in PER and GO rating. So by all means, lets play him more. That will cost us losses more than wins. For every 10 mins Hayward plays, lose 5 points for the Jazz statistically.

As for Almond, he got his chances. He had them in Orem, he had them in practice everyday. Almond never learned the Jazz system. He was a “me first” guy and it didn’t work. He had one good game. That is great. But you fail to mention how he got 10 points in his next game: on ten shots in 22 minutes. He played 104 minutes over those 5 games and took 36 shots. Big time chucker. And he made 11 of them. So when he got his chances, he just kept shooting. You know that guy at the pickup game who shoots every other time he touches the ball and keeps missing and missing and missing? No one wants to play with that guy. But my favorite part of the Jazz mistreating Morris Almond, was when Mo went on to prove the Jazz wrong by signing with the Orlando Magic and then earning regular rotation minutes and avoiding the d-league for the rest of his NBA career and proving himself to be a legitimate NBA player. Stupid Jazz.

The Spurs develop young players? So do the Jazz. Paul Millsap has been developed really well. Shandon Anderson was before him. Deron Williams. Mo Williams. Eric Maynor. You know, young guys that are good and help the team. The Spurs have just as many “projects buried on the bench” as the Jazz have had. Ian Mahinmi comes to mind. Mostly the Spurs trade away their picks. Maybe they draft smarter. If you are disappointed that the Jazz drafted Hayward? Maybe that is the heart of the matter, not his minutes. But like I said earlier, Hayward doesn’t need to prove himself now. He is a future investment. Even if he is a 9th pick. How many people have been drafted top 10 and joined a team that won 50+ games the previous season? I would guess maybe 3 in the last 20 years. Maybe none.

And yes, Sloan would have played Glen Davis minutes, if he deserved them. But Davis only played 13 mins a game for the Celtics his rookie year. He scored 4 points a game and he had more than 10 DNP-CDs. Poor oppressed Glen Davis. If only a team that develops rookies instead of bringing them along at a learner’s pace drafted him.

Kevin O’Connor asked Jazz fans to judge Hayward after two seasons for a reason. So they wouldn’t judge him, or ask for him to get regular rotation minutes in his rookie year.

The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.

by clarkpojo on Dec 26, 2010 3:56 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

I just have a funny feeling,

that in 3-4 years. Hayward is going to be a strong rotation player and we are going to look silly for not playing him; especially because we’ll probably end up giving him away for nothing like Maynor.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Dec 26, 2010 10:16 PM MST reply actions  

If his Ceiling is that of an Eric Maynor, bench "change of pace" guy, Hayward would be an Enormous Bust

Hayward was picked in the middle of the lottery, 9th overall. Maynor was picked in the middle of the second round.

If Hayward takes 3-4 years just to become “a strong rotation player”, then O’Connor screwed up with that pick.

by IronPalm on Dec 27, 2010 8:10 AM MST up reply actions  

I don't know what the point is debating anything

when simple facts are incorrectly reported by you. Maynor was a 1st round pick, pick 20. That said, Hayward better be good, otherwise our front office goofed by taking him so high.

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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Dec 27, 2010 10:42 AM MST up reply actions  

Ugh, You're Right

Don’t know why I thought Maynor was drafted in the second round! Maybe I got confused with DraftExpress’s projections, which had him going 40-something most of the year? Yeah, 20th overall.

by IronPalm on Dec 29, 2010 8:26 PM MST up reply actions  

Maynor

is a dang good back up point guard and could probably make a case for being a starting point guard on some teams in the NBA.

Also, I said in 3-4 years Hayward will be a strong rotation player, not that it would take that long. We will be looking back at him and going. Dang he was better than I thought.

I don’t know how a strong rotation player is screwing up a draft pick. Considering most don’t even make it in the NBA. I would gladely take Bell or Cj type numbers from Hayward who I also consider to be strong rotation players.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Dec 27, 2010 2:07 PM MST up reply actions  

Why would we think that? Do we look at CJ's improvement now and say, "CJ was a lot better as a rookie than I thought?"

No. We just realize that he has finally come into his own and improved mentally, physically and skillfully. The same will happen with Hayward. Being good in 2-3 years is not the same as being good now, but just getting a chance in 2-3 years to show it.

The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.

by clarkpojo on Dec 27, 2010 2:35 PM MST up reply actions  

I think,

You misinterputed what I meant by alot better than I thought. I wasn’t saying as a rookie. I was saying that looking at him in 3-4 and remembering how he is playing now, we’ll realize he was better than we thought he could be.

I think that about Cj that way all the time now that he’s playing some what more consistent. Honestly 2 years ago I didn’t want him on the team. Now I think he’s one of the stronger rotation players we have. Looking back on what he was as a rookie or even just when OKC made him an offer, he’s made strides that I didn’t think he could make.

I also think that about Maynor. Watching him play on Christmas it made me wish we had kept him instead of just dumping him. Especially because he’s young and I think he could have thrived in our offense. It might have become a Mo Williams kind of situation at one point but I would have liked him to develop that much on the team.

Honestly, that’s what worries me about the Hayward situation more than anything. We don’t NEED him. A top 10 draft pick is a luxary for us. The problem is though, he’s struggled. Which means a couple of things.

A. He probably will get less playing time or even demoted to the D-league if he doesn’t pick things up. Which doesn’t really help the team any and I personally believe it doesn’t help him any.

B. His value drops. Since he is a luxary, suppose we could trade him for a better player or even pull off another Maynor trade. His trade value stinks because he isn’t playing well, or he will hav ebeen benched, or he will be put in the d-league. OKC took Maynor cause he was playing well. Had we tried to dump someone else like Koof, they wouldn’t have taken it.

C. He may never live up to his potential but putting that off a till his contract expires or his extension expires just to see if he can live up to it; well that also hurts the Jazz. Suppose he never turns into a player. So we just don’t resign him or let him walk to another team.

None of those situations hlep the Jazz and THEN I would call the fabled Knicks pick a waste. Didn’t get a player who can help the team (Hayward) and didn’t get a trade or a decent trade for a top 10 draftee. At that point I would be upset.

Obviously we disagree on what should be done with Hayward but I would rather see sooner rather than later if Hayward can respond to more minutes and step into a role on the team. So we can either invest in him, trade him for something we value, or realize he’s a bust and cut ties.

I am not saying I expect Hayward to be amazing as a rookie, but I would hope there would be marked improvement at the end of this year, and next year, etc. Waiting as long as we did for CJ to come around is exactly what I don’t want to see happen. We got lucky that CJ actually turned into what he did. Had he flopped, well that would have blown hard for having tried to “develop” him for so long.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Dec 27, 2010 4:26 PM MST up reply actions  

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