Inspiration from the Comment Threads.

by Yucca Man on May 1, 2010 12:59 AM MDT

Well, Denver Stiffs, I've been inspired. For whatever it's worth, your game threads really generate some introspection and deep thinking. So, in honor of the poetry I've seen over there, here are some of my personal goals:

1. Never whine about the refs.

Holy freaking crap. My Kindergarteners handle disappointment better than I saw in those posts. I know I'll break this rule sometimes (especially when Millsap is involved), and I do think a few gems should be openly and enthusiastically mocked (like Marcus Camby's foul on Steve Nash, as called by the incomparable Joey Crawford).

And I know the refs stunk this series. I was sick of the constant whistles. But so what. Life's messy sometimes. The universe doesn't exist to entertain me nor to fulfill my fantastic whims. And sometimes my guys will be on the wrong side of dumb calls.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Quit whining about refs. Everyone, everywhere, Nuggets fans, Jazz fans, all fans, for the love of Zeus, quit whining about the refs. Are there any fans in the universe that can accept defeat without saying it's all because of the refs?

2. Never bring personal attacks, life-threatening-diseases, or glee-filled-wishes-for-injuries into any conversation.

Remember how irate so many of the Nuggets' fans got over the George Karl cancer-referenced sign idea? Remember how embarrassed most of us felt about it? Well some of these same fans wrote that they'd like Deron to tear his ACL or suffer some other kind of season and/or career ending injury. Ye-hah, baby. What a load of crap.

And do you know what? That cancer sign wasn't nearly as hateful as the Deron injury wishes. The cancer sign was somebody trying to be edgily funny and failing both miserably and offensively. That ladies and gents ain't hate. It's a lot of other really bad things, but it's not really hate. If you don't believe me, look up the word in the dictionary. Actively hoping and wishing something awful happens to someone because you really, really dislike him? That's hate. And yeah, a torn ACL's not nearly as bad as a life-threatening disease. But it still sucks. Just ask Memo.

3. Never write anonymous, pseudonymous junk that I'm much too civilized to actually say out loud or stamp my real name next to.

I know what's going to happen next. Someone will brag that they do say trash out loud, and they do stamp their names to insulting, mean-spirited, profane crud.

Well, good for you.

4. Put Denver Stiffs right next to the Rockets Red Glare on the list of opposing fan sites too mean-spirited to even bother visiting. I'll hang out with Blazer fans instead.

Goodbye Nuggets, sayonara Denver Stiffs, I'm looking forward to never thinking about you again this season.

And lest I be called a hater, an anti-Nugget, or whatever, I ask all of us at SLCDunk to plese follow these rules. We know our chances against the Lakers aren't good. We know our team is more likely to end the season with a loss than a win--whether we pull of a miracle against LA or not.

So let's not let OUR site have any of this crap on when our guys go down. Let's not have OUR site join someone else's list of miserable fans on SportsNation.

* I haven't written in a while. I was terrified to. Just like I was terrified to watch an entire Jazz/Nuggets game.

The Jazz followed up on my last post by losing to Houston, Phoenix, and Denver-game 1. Those also happened to be the last 3 games I saw from opening tip to final buzzer. Family stuff kept me away from games 2-4 until the mid-3rd quarters. So, of course, I knew I couldn't watch game 5 from the beginning. One of my grad school classmates actually threatened me, letting me know that if I did, and if the Jazz lost, she'd hold me personally responsible. So I came into game 5 at the same time as always, mid-3rd quarter. Thank Zeus the Jazz lost. I now felt free to watch an entire game again (which I did tonight), and write about my Jazz-obsession.

I love how sports make even the most reasonable dudes cower in superstition.

All comments are the opinion of the commenter and not necessarily that of SLC Dunk or SB Nation.

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Comments

I'm in.

I will take the pledge. But let it be known that I do so at great expense. I hate refs almost as much as I hate the Lakers. To be gracious about evil feels like lying, which I try not to do. But you are right. The high road is where SLCdunk belongs. And it’s true that Blazers Edge guys are very cool. I want to be like them.

I'll make it coach.

by MTN on May 1, 2010 9:44 AM MDT reply actions

Well said

I think we do a pretty good job here. There are times fandom drives us crazy and the refs are an easy scapegoat so it’s not going away completely. I do refuse the right to complain about the refs any time Millsap is involved however. Millsap getting hosed on both ends is as sure as the night will turn to day.

SLCDunk.com, The Utah Jazz on SBNation

by Basketball John on May 1, 2010 10:19 AM MDT reply actions

Couple of things

1. Yes, the constant complaining about refs isn’t necessary in games which aren’t swayed heavily by officiating (i.e. Game 3…I was really surprised that there were a few fans blaming the refs in that one). But in other games (Games 2, 4, 5, and 6 come to mind here), the refs either made horrible, game-changing calls (i.e. Miles’ foot on the line) or else slowed down the pace considerably and made the game frustrating, not entertaining, to watch (i.e. 90 free throws in one game). I think we as fans have a right to complain when the officiating gets as bad as that.

2. I’m guilty. I made some posts about Boozer that you probably wouldn’t like very much. In my defense, it was right after he had taken out Nene and, at that point, any hope of a Nuggets comeback was destroyed in my mind. Frustration. You know. Not much of a defense, but whatever.

With Williams (I may have said something regarding how I hoped he would miss the rest of the playoffs), I was extremely disappointed to see how often he flopped. I don’t get why a great point guard has to flop all the time to get calls. Play defense. I mean, come on.

3. God yes. Most annoying thing ever.

4. I’m sorry you feel Denver Stiffs is too mean spirited to visit, but I’m not sure why you feel that way to be honest.

It probably has something to do with the game threads and how a lot of complaining goes on, legitimate and not. It might have something to do with the fact that certain trolls get blasted off the site immediately if they make stupid comments. It might have something to do with how we’re an argumentative bunch on occasion.

However, see it from our perspective. We follow a team that came maybe two Trevor Ariza steals from going to the NBA Finals. No Nugget fan doubted that the team had the potential to go all the way this year, thanks to another year of improvement and Ty Lawson’s arrival. Then the injuries came (Melo, Billups, KMart, Ty Lawson, Bird, and Nene as a parting shot) and the coach was afflicted with cancer, and the front office stood by watching and not making any moves. A collapse at the end of the season. Adrian Dantley being extremely lost and incompetent compared to Sloan. Being unable to beat the Jazz, who the Nugs had already beaten thrice.

The Nuggets suffered through a lot of adversity this year, and they didn’t respond to it particularly well. We as fans were frustrated, and to see them revert to their first-round-exit ways of old (and to the Jazz! in just 6 games!) was the worst possible scenario.

So…mean-spirited? Maybe based on the limited sample size you saw this series. We do have some…aggressive (for lack of a better word) posters and the arguments do get kind of mean-spirited if they’re continued a long way, but on the whole we welcome other teams’ fans. Post there a bit and you’ll see we’re not that bad. The game threads that you witnessed featured a lot of drunk posts, a lot of frustration, and a lot of wow-how-are-we-getting-owned-by-Wesley-Mathews. That’s probably our absolute worst. And even then I didn’t think it was that bad.

Also, Nate and Andrew are excellent writers, even if Nate has a strange love of bad movies and Andrew has several controversial pieces.

And by the way, thanks for not posting this on our site. There’s been a Laker fan or two that enjoys policing our commenters (and nothing else), but in general you guys don’t stoop to that level. The few times commenters from this site come over to DS they’ve generally been well-received.

Anyway, I hope the Nuggets and Jazz face off again next year. Looking forward to a rematch, with both sides (hopefully) fully healthy.

Quitter's People United: Member 12

by Uh on May 1, 2010 1:38 PM MDT reply actions

Thanks for the comments

I get frustration. I really do. You had an absurdly frustrating season this year. We had on last year (though it didn’t involve cancer, thankfully).

1. I get the refs were bad. The CJ foot-on-the-line was a blown call that had immediate, obvious impact on the game (though the truth is ALL bad calls have an impact, and if you keep a running score on any game they’ll end up being about even for both sides. I don’t care what anyone says, blowing a call in the 1st quarter has just as big an effect—but nobody talks about those like a blown late 4th quarter call).

And the number of fouls and free throws was staggeringly stupid.

But to me constant ref-bashing just makes the game even less enjoyable. And it drives me up the wall that every time a team—really, virtually any team at all—loses, its fans seem to invariably blame the refs. It’s so predictably lame.

2. Actually this is what really got me. Our best guy, our favorite player finally started getting recognition for his play—True Hoops, ESPN, Sports Guy, etc. (Deron’s really been this good for about 3 years)—and so I checked out your game thread to see what it was like to see it from your POV. Like I said, I get frustration, I get lousy disappointing endings to maddening seasons, but we just witnessed Deron Williams’s coming out party, having a better first five games (statistically, anyway) than any point guard ever, we saw him own one of the best PG’s of the past 7-8 years (A PG who kicked the crap out of Chris Paul last postseason)—and all I saw at the game thread was “I hope he tears his ACL and is out the rest of the playoffs.” And then dozens upon dozens of comments agreeing. Wow.

4. That was the mean-spirited stuff I was talking about. When a bunch of guys openly despise my favorite player—a guy who plays hard, dazzling, and by all accounts seems a pretty good guy, a player who has embraced SLC and Utah more than any previous Jazzman ever, a guy that I imagine telling my grandchildren about—anyway, when a bunch of people so despise my player that they openly hope his season and/or career gets derailed by big-time injuries—well, I don’t want anything to do with them.

I know it was a small sample size. I know it was probably the minority of Denver Stiff’s commenters and participants. I know it was fueled by a whole lot of frustration. I’ve felt that level of frustration before.

And that’s why I didn’t post it on your site. Because it wasn’t really about the Denver Stiff’s site. It was about what I felt glancing through the comment thread and a plea for our commenters to understand what kind of crappy effect all this stuff has, how insulting it is to the opposing fans, how tiresome the ranting and raving gets, how it can blind you from seeing something magnificent.

Earlier this season, the Jazz slaughtered the Blazers three times in two weeks. Harry Abbott, the True Hoops author and die-hard Blazers fan, wrote about how magnificent the Jazz were. He went on and on about the team play, the intelligence, and the brilliance of Deron Williams.

That’s what I’d like to be like when my guys lose. I want to be able to enjoy and appreciate another teams’ good play. I want the other fans to be able to read our stuff about their win and come away smiling.

I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time

by Yucca Man on May 1, 2010 4:00 PM MDT up reply actions

I get what you're saying

And I agree, there needs to be some general guidelines that everyone can follow that would improve both of these sites.

But I don’t know how reasonable it is to expect everyone to just praise their opponent endlessly after the team they’ve been rooting for gets knocked out of the playoffs.

Here’s why I think that. The Nuggets came in as the favorite. It can’t be denied. They may not be the better team, but the general perception (particularly after Game 1) was that they would breeze through the playoffs. Thus, when they ended up getting knocked out after 6, the general feeling was more about the Nuggets imploding than the Jazz succeeding. It’s fair to give the Jazz credit (and you’ll notice both Nate and Andrew did so in their recaps), but at the same time it’s only natural to look to other reasons why a team that appeared to be at such an advantage could lose in such fashion. That’s where criticizing the refs, blaming injuries, blaming Adrian Dantley, etc. comes in. To a Nuggets fan, it might not be about Deron Williams playing the series of his life. It might be about Chauncey showing his age in a big series. And so forth.

Quitter's People United: Member 12

by Uh on May 2, 2010 8:30 AM MDT up reply actions

the nuggets DID go in as the favorites

and when something goes wrong, fans need someone to blame; i get that. when we lose games, the overriding sentiment at this site is that it was our team’s fault, that we didn’t live up to the challenge. you’ll see lots of comments about how we didn’t get the job done, and not necessarily a great deal of praise for the opponents—which goes along with what the example you raised about chancey showing his age rather than being outplayed. criticizing the refs and finding internal reasons (injuries, coaching, players) are different, though imo.

by moni on May 2, 2010 1:36 PM MDT up reply actions

As someone who glanced at the Denver Stiffs posts during the series...

I have to agree with both points of view. I felt like the actual recaps were very fair and accurate. I think the problem came in with a few of the commenters. I don’t know if there is a solution to that problem. Just like in real life, it seems like the antagonists, while the minority, are more vocal, thus seeming like the majority. I know I sometimes don’t feel as confident in simply agreeing, or giving praise, as someone who is eager to play the devil’s advocate. Anyway, thanks to both Yucca Man and Uh for telling it like it is :)

Basketball doesn't build character. It reveals it.
-Unknown

by Rog. on May 4, 2010 10:11 AM MDT up reply actions

This is a pretty accurate assessment

There’s a couple who might seem homerish to non-Nugget fans, but for the most part the commenters are a pretty good group.

Quitter's People United: Member 12

by Uh on May 4, 2010 4:50 PM MDT up reply actions

Flopping=getting calls=good defense

It’s a defensive play, just like a cross over is an offensive play. It’s not about real contact, it’s about playing chess. And Deron plays chess very well. Now, a dive is different, but Deron wasn’t diving. He was getting to the spot before the other guy, setting his feet, and letting the guy knock him over. That’s a defensive play. Call it what you want.

I'll make it coach.

by MTN on May 2, 2010 12:17 AM MDT up reply actions

I won't get into this, but I should just mention I'm not a huge fan of flopping

Chauncey Billups does it incessantly and it, along with the transition 3 attempts, is one of the few things that really annoys me about his game.

There’s just something I don’t like about this “chess play”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-ah_s0B97c&feature=player_embedded

Quitter's People United: Member 12

by Uh on May 2, 2010 8:34 AM MDT up reply actions

it worked, right?

blame the refs, not the players. It’s like Wall St. getting away with whatever the sec doesn’t catch.

I'll make it coach.

by MTN on May 2, 2010 9:35 AM MDT up reply actions

If we blame the refs, we're in exactly the same predicament that led Yucca Man to make a post about blaming the refs less

Although yes that one falls squarely on the ref’s shoulders.

Quitter's People United: Member 12

by Uh on May 2, 2010 9:46 AM MDT up reply actions

i was thinking the same thing as MTN

but you response makes a good point.

i’m not a fan of flopping either, but i blame the entire officiating system (rather than a specific crew of refs). if officials were consistent with their calls (not just from game to game, but quarter to quarter and player to player), and you know whether they’re going to let you play or call the game tight, you don’t need to flop in an effort to get calls.

by moni on May 2, 2010 2:08 PM MDT up reply actions

yes, it's systemic

and I think that’s a different criticism than fussing about particular refs in a particular game, which is what I have pledged not to do because of YuccaMan’s post.

I'll make it coach.

by MTN on May 3, 2010 11:48 AM MDT up reply actions

Though about what you said...

So I decided to check out the site again after thinking I was leaving for good last week. I read the article titled “We are all Jazz fans now”, pretty good article….then I read the comments. Wow, you pretty much suck over there.

There are a few of you that are decent, you definitely being one Uh base on your comments I’ve seen, and your moderators are top-notch. But, other than that, most of the comments are plain vitriol and on par with the Dream Shake (and that is saying something). But, you can feel free to post here anytime!

by jbuxxy on May 4, 2010 11:49 AM MDT up reply actions

they're nowhere near as bad as the Dream Shake.

Nuggets fans hate our team. I can respect that, just being a good fan. Dream Shake people hate every living person in the whole state including a slew of anti-mormon jokes.

Uh, do you think you could draw me like a ninja?
SLCDunk.com: Bringing you ninjas, The KOOFs and anti-jinxes since 2008.

by Shums on May 4, 2010 2:48 PM MDT up reply actions

Thanks for the welcome.

I don’t know how often I’ll post, but I’m hoping next year I’ll have an excuse with another Nuggets-Jazz playoff series. Should be fun

And yes the writers at DS produce some excellent pieces, including an interview with George Karl back in October

Quitter's People United: Member 12

by Uh on May 4, 2010 4:48 PM MDT up reply actions

Denver Broadcasters

I live in Chicago so only get to watch Utah games when they are nationally televised. However, over the weekend I was in Omaha, NE and the final UT/DEN game was on the ALTITUDE network (which is the network that broadcasts locally for Denver). So I was able to listen to and watch the game from their POV. And I have to be honest, I’ve never heard so much whining from announcers in my life. And I watch a lot of basketball. It was super annoying. Maybe it’s not the fans fault that they’re so negative, maybe it’s the media in Denver. It was horrible.

I’m not even a Denver fan but found myself embarrassed by these announcers.

i like balls

by chicagorilla on May 4, 2010 4:25 PM MDT reply actions

I made a point to listen to EVERY teams announcing crew with NBA league pass the last two years and Denver wins hands down for most biased call.

People make fun of Mr. Rice in Portland and Tommy Heinson in boston, but they can’t hold a candle to Hastings and the other Denver guy. Not even close.

Detroit’s broadcasters on the other hand are super funny. Every shot is a gun. A long gun. A running gun. A 20 foot gun.

The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.

by clarkpojo on May 4, 2010 5:26 PM MDT up reply actions