I've heard enough Hayward Bashing
by BobbyD31 on Jun 29, 2010 10:42 AM MDT
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PrintThe more I thought about it the more I think it was the right move. I know you just think I went crazy, but just look at the situation.
Everyone wants us to take a big guy, but when Cole Aldrich came in at 6'9" and Ed Davis by all accounts being 3 to 4 years away from being productive, who do you take? Patrick Patterson, He was the 4th best player on his college team that didn't even make the final four. I'm not sure he is the number 2 people keep demanding. The Jazz felt that they wouldn't help us out any more than Kosta and Fes. It was to the point that we need another project big man about as much as we need to give CJ a max contract. KOC said that the Jazz felt like after Monroe was off the board then we were better off looking at other ways for bringing in a big man. I guess they are looking to bing in a veteran big man who we know can contribute. The Jazz are still going to try to develop Fes and Kosta. Let's not write Kosta off yet, he is still younger than Udoh and some of the players in this draft after all. Also the pick opens up opportunities for us to move AK for a big and another role player. I know it would be losing AK, but his contract is a good trade chip. The more I thought about it, the more it made sense.
Hayward was the best NBA ready player available. He was on most draft boards as the 3rd best wing player, after Turner and Johnson. Most people outside of Utah like the pick. He is a great pick and roll player and also makes AK expendable, again trade for a big and maybe another player. The Jazz also said that they wanted a guy that could make plays and make those around them better, cross Henry off the list. They wanted a guy who was a solid defender, cross Babbitt of the list. So the more you think about it, Hayward had the most to offer. I also thought it was interesting to note that the guy the Thunder were trying to trade up to get was Hayward. They love him and were willing to give up Eric Maynor and two first rounders for him, to the Pacers for the 10 pick. To me that says a lot about how good he could be. For all the bashing on KOC, when he is liking the same young guy as OKC he must be doing something right. This also made any thought of trading down to get him unrealistic.
The pick also makes bringing Boozer back more believable. There are still reports out there that Boozer could end up in NJ, Chicago, or Miami. The thing is that if a team is going to give Boozer max money, then it is likely we could do a sign and trade with him and get something back in return and since we have trade exceptions.
Another thing that made me feel better is that KOC said that they tried to move up, but that the asking prices were to high. I took that with a grain of salt until I heard on a podcast that that was true. The Jazz were really trying to move up in the draft, but teams were asking way too much.
I agree that he isn’t going to be an all star. I am very worried how a guy with a stroke like his goes from 45% from 3 to 29%. I am worried about his muscle and how well he will develop. All isn't roses with him, but he is a winner and a hard worker. I really believe he will be very solid for a long time. Brad Stevens also said yesterday on Kall 700 when he was asked about his percentage going down and he said, "he'll make every big one" and he also said "if I were a Jazz fan I wouldn't lose any sleep over it." I hope he is right. For now we need to get behind this guy because, even if you don't like it, he is ours.
All comments are the opinion of the commenter and not necessarily that of SLC Dunk or SB Nation.
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We weren’t going to get a franchise player in this draft with the 9th pick. Outside the top 5, no one was going to be considered that.
I think more people are just frustrated more than anything. We have waited for this pick like the fans in NY have been waiting for the Lebron free agency. We have been counting it down, foolishly hoping that we could land John Wall or Evan Turner. It’s more of a frustration that the reality of the pick wasn’t going to change our franchise.
I am frustrated because you go from the fool’s hope that you could land Wall, Turner or Favors and instead you end up with Hayward.
It’s just boiled over frustration from the reality that the pick wasn’t as sweet as we were all hoping. Kind of like the “new” Star Wars that Lucas released. There was all this crazy hype going into the movie and all sort of expectations, then you walk out of the theater with Jar-Jar Binks running in your head. You immediately declared the movie as horrible. Over time you could gather yourself to stomach Jar-Jar Binks and watch it again. That’s what I relate it to. We just got Jar-Jar Binks’d.
A couple things
First, Patterson: For his college team, he was overshadowed by a bunch of freshmen (Wall, Bledsoe, Cousins) who most knew would be one-and-done. He was a key player on the team 2 years ago though, but saw his touches fall this year amidst all the youngsters. Not so much on him as it is on the make-up of the team. But he spent 4 years (I think) with Kentucky, so he has more playing experience… and could probably come in a contribute right away (like Millsap did). He is more NBA ready than Hayward.
Second, Hayward: I went over this in a post I got up earlier about Gordon Hayward (the day after he was drafted), but the shooting drop was impacted primarily by defenses. His first year, he was taking open shots and defenses weren’t focusing on him, so he shot 44% from downtown. Second year, it was a combination of the defenses focusing in on him and him trying to do more for the offense (that 2nd one is according to Hayward), so he was shooting with a hand in his face. We’ll have to see how he responds to that in the league… I doubt he’ll be open very often if he’s making his shots. I wouldn’t go as far as to call him a solid defender (he benefited from being part of a very good defensive team). I also wouldn’t say Henry doesn’t make the guys around him better.
Third, the third best wing: This is completely debatable. Behind Turner & Johnson, it was a huge mess. Some had Henry. Some had Hayward. Some had Babbitt. Some had George.
Fourth, Aldrich: Sure, he came in at 6’9 without shoes. But he was about 6’11 with shoes (or whatever), and he blocks shots. I just feel that there were viable options to fill bigger needs if the Jazz looked that way (Aldrich, Patterson), instead they went with another wing. Now Patterson & Aldrich are on rival teams (Houston, OKC) … and it makes me wonder. There was a lot of news about OKC trying to trade up for Hayward. Yet they still ended up trading up for Aldrich… Hayward might’ve just been thrown out there to make Aldrich drop to them. Aldrich might not score a ton, but he’ll do other things… things the Jazz need.
I’m not like anti-Hayward or anything, I just don’t see the brilliance in drafting another wing (and if you trade away AK… who’s our best inside help defender… or resign Boozer… who can’t play defense… then this looks worse than it is).
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I mostly agree with you
I agree with most of what you are saying.
First, Patterson may be more NBA ready, but you really think a guy that was a main player on poor Kentucky teams and an overshadowed player on a good team, means he will be great in the NBA. I couldn’t see Patterson being the player that is going to stop our defensive problems in the middle. I think he will be a guy that is around forever and is a 8 point 4 rebound guy off the bench, but I don’t see more.
2nd, I heard a lot of the same things.
Third, you are right it is debatable. All I know is what I have read and heard. But it seems that the Jazz didn’t think Henry could make plays, and they had more questions about Babbitt’s D then Hayward’s. George had too much Nick Young potentional, though I posted a clip the day before the draft that some scouts say he could be T-Mac. I think the thing with him is he is too much of a question mark for the Jazz. He could be an all star or out of the league in 3 years. Personally I would have been ok Henry, but Babbitt couldn’t guard a chair. I did see the NCAA games in Utah though and Hayward was the best player on the floor. He played Wes Johnson evenly the whole game and down the stretch he outplayed him and willed Butler to a win.
4. The Thunder did like Aldrich, I think he will be Nick Collison 2.0 for them. But they gave up two picks for him, when they were willing to give up those two picks plus Eric Maynor for Hayward. Alrdich was like the consolation prize for them. Teams as a whole really weren’t impressed with Aldrich’s two inch shoes. Before he measured at 6’9" without shoes he was a 5-7 pick. When he came in at 6’9" overnight he dropped to the 11-15 range. I just think the Jazz think Kosta can be as good as Aldrich.
Its more that no one wanted Maynor
the Pacers said no, and NO already has CP3 and Collison. Why acquire another PG? Kosta is going to need A LOT of work if he’s going to be anywhere close to where Aldrich is right now.
Yeah, the wing position was a mess. Agreed on Babbitt’s D; I wasn’t really a fan of any of them save Henry (my second choice would’ve been James Anderson).
As for Patterson… Kentucky wasn’t really “poor” 2 years ago, I don’t think… they just didn’t have the star talent. Patterson is never going to be the “go-to-guy” for an offense, but he would help plug the middle. We’ll see… Houston has been fairly good with the bigs they’ve acquired (Scola, Landry, Hayes).
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Not True on Maynor
The Pacers wanted Maynor to help out with there PG situation. The whole deal was based on Hayward being available. The only reason they made the deal with NO was because they didn’t get the deal with Indy done. That is the reason Aldrich was their fall back plan. You are right NO didn’t want Maynor, all I was saying is Hayward would have cost them more and they were willing to do it. Aldrich is better than Kosta, I agree. But Kosta is still young.
Go look up how good Kentucky was before Callipari and I think you will see what I mean. Or just ask any Kentucky fan about the Billy Gillispie era. I agree the Houston is a good fit for him. They do a good job with the big guys they get.
I dunno if it was defense
that slowed Hayward’s shooting.
He actually said that his shots were done and he just lost confidence in his shot. It also forced him to develop other talents like driving and dishing, etc etc.
If anything the shooting drop probably helped his stock a little because scouts and teams got to see that Hayward’s game was more than just being a shooter. The fact that he could shoot 44% only proved that he does have a shooters touch somewhere in there. Meaning he is pretty well rounded. He was more well rounded than Babbitt and Babbitt was just a pure shooter.
I like the Hayward pick. Teams were trying to move up to take him. The pacers were looking at him. Especially in our system he’s supposed to be able to exceed well. College coaches like Izzo, Calipari, and Mike K all weighed and said they thought Hayward had an amazing game that would work in our system.
Not only that our own Jerry Sloan was comparing him to hall of fame players. Jerry Sloan isn’t a name dropper but to hear him compare Hayward to Walt Frazier and Larry Bird makes me thinkt hat Sloan REAAALLY sees something in this kid. That with the reaction of teams trying to trade up and the opinions dropped by the NCAA’s best basketball coaches…. I’m sold. Hayward was the right guy to pick
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"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
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*shoots
were down. Meaning his attempts were down.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Pacers
part of the reason they were looking at Hayward was because he was an in-state guy. Hoping fans would swarm to that. Not saying its the only reason, but its part of it.
As for the % drop… he did lose confidence (according to himself). But also, if you look at it, when he was a freshman, he didn’t see much from the defenses. After a good/great 1st season, defenses keyed in on him and stopped giving him open shots
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That makes me happy then
Cause he didn’t just stay an outside shooter. He adjusted to the defense. His shot attempts went down meaning he stopped taking shots that were well defended and either passed out or put the ball on the floor.
That speaks loads to me in itself. He was smart enough to recognize that he had to change the way he was playing.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
I get tired of harping on this ...
But every time I think the discussion is dead somebody else brings up Hayward’s spot on the roster enables the Jazz to dump AK’s salary to resign Boozer as if it’s an unquestionably good thing.
I’m not going to hijack the discussion board here, so just see what Clark and Myself both have to say about it.
Please, everyone who hasn’t read up on these posts do so before you bring this subject. Keep in mind that there are a lot of people in this group who think this is just about the worst thing the Jazz can do, and if you blindly suggest it again you’ll subject yourselves to another barrage of annoyed commenters.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I am not saying to bring Boozer back
I think the pick just gives the Jazz options. I think Boozer is gone. Yucca man I am with you on that bringing Boozer back isn’t what I want or what I think we should do. I am hoping, as I said above, that there is a team out there that offers Boozer the max and we work a sign and trade for him. I would love to keep AK, but if we can get someone big to help our team in exchange for him, having Hayward makes it more possible. I am not saying one or the other and I am not saying get rid of both. I am saying options. It makes the Jazz more flexible.
Locke
has anyone tried to take this stuff to Locke? he is such a Booz homer. wishfully thinking it’s just a front office and KFAN love fest in hopes of getting a S&T out of him . . .
and i hope you two didn’t scare jazzmoney out of town. i enjoyed the discussion but it got a little personal in the end man . . .
by jazzin'jimbo on Jun 29, 2010 7:33 PM MDT up reply actions
yucca man and clark were using facts and stats to support their arguments.
that’s pretty non-personal if you ask me…
Clark's
comments are always laced with a “your momma” feel to them.
=D. Jking clark!
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
it was just one reply that i remembered
probly cause i not two brite an can’t wright gud an my spellin and writing sucs and i is just sensitiv thad ways iz al — but PLEASE don’t hesitate to correct or disagree with anything i write or say. i really dig the discussion man!
by jazzin'jimbo on Jun 29, 2010 8:29 PM MDT up reply actions
errr
i think i might have been wrong on this one Yucca and believe i understand now . . . .apologies
don't be hatin on my syntax
by jazzin'jimbo on Jun 30, 2010 11:40 AM MDT up reply actions
Not a threat ... but here's an analogy
I have these two chairs in my living room that I hate. I can go on and on about why I hate them, and sometimes I get tired of thinking about them at all (Why do we have them? Because they were free hand-me-downs).
Well, I’ve been saving up and am looking forward to when I can get some new furniture and get rid of the stupid chairs. I’ve even window shopped and put together a plan for my new living room when I can afford the furniture I want.
So whenever I start talking about what I want to do with my living room, someone gets an “ah ha” moment and comes up with a brilliant way to adjust my plan so I can keep the chairs. It usually involves getting rid of my favorite end table, and the person always has this bright glint in the eye, dazzled with their own brilliance and just waiting for my excited response. They’re just waiting for me to say: “No way! There’s a way to keep the chairs! Thank Zeus!”
But here’s the thing: I hate the freaking chairs. I DON’T WANT THE DANG CHAIRS! And I love the end table. It’s the greatest end table ever. Nobody seems to appreciate how amazing the end table is because they somehow decided that these awful chairs are awesome.
And it’s fine the first time this happens. I just say I don’t like the chairs, the person says why I ought to like them, I say why I disagree, and life moves on.
But by the twentieth time this happens, I am sick of bringing it up. But I feel like I have to bring up why I don’t want the chairs again, because nobody seems to listen to me. And I’m so irritated with bringing up why the chairs are awful, again, that I inevitably come across as a dude way to obsessed with the chairs. Which is funny, because it’s the other people who seem to have an irrational love for these awful chairs. I mean they’re terrible. They’re ugly. They’ve got worn patches on the side. They have sharp edges that have scratched the wall. They are very comfortable for about 20 minutes, after which they don’t feel good at all. Of course visitors don’t usually get past that first nice 20 minutes, so they don’t get that they’re awful.
And I’m not going to get into the end table. But I think it’s enough to say that only the people living in the home can really understand how awesome the end table is, and how much we rely on it in our day-to-day living.
So there it is. To me, Boozer’s the chairs. AK’s the end table.
And of course people are going to disagree. Of course there are people that want Boozer back. And of course people on this site are going to voice their opinions.
But what gets me is when someone posts a brilliant plan, one that usually involves dumping AK’s contract, that (I’ll use all caps now, because that’s how exciting the following statement seems to be) LETS THE JAZZ RESIGN BOOZER!!!!!!!!! OH FREAKING HALLELUJA!!!!!!!!!!! And it’s always written in a way that assumes that everyone on the site desperately wants to bring Boozer back and “Thank Zeus there’s a way!”
And the first time it’s okay. It’s a matter of different opinions. Same with the second or third. But after a while it gets old. And it’s not that you and others want Boozer back that gets old. It’s when posts assume that of course every rational Jazz-fan alive wants Boozer back. Because there are quite a few of us who don’t, and we have much more carefully thought-out opinions than just “I like him ‘cause he’s cool, but I don’t like him.”
I guess all I’m asking is that when anyone posts an “I want Boozer Back” comment or post, please write it in a way that acknowledges that there are a lot of us that disagree.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Oh, they do
If Yi had done his pre-draft workouts guarded by these particular chairs, I don’t know if he would have ever made the NBA
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
That said ...
I don’t mind the Harward pick at all. It is a huge bummer after spending so much time dreaming of a top-3 pick.
But I think Harward can become a very solid contributor. He’s got the same attitude and kind of play that is making Wesley and Millsap ready to jump into Most-Improved candidacy next season.
It is disappointing that we won’t get a probable All-Star. But the question is, were there any probable All-Stars left by the 9th pick? And going through draft history showed me that the Jazz were very likely to get a stiff had they blindly gone after a big guy. That’s just how it is. Big guys get drafted higher than their skills warrant, and smaller guys get drafted lower than their skills warrant. Because you can’t teach height. Just ask Fes.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Has anyone looked at it this way:
He’s 6’9", mobile, can shoot, plays D OK, has had coaches say he will work well in our system (don’t forget, not everyone works well in our system/under Coach Sloan) and it looks like he was a preference of Coach Sloan…
Could he have been picked to be groomed as our next AK? Our next multi-role, multi-position player? I know, I’m drawing a long bow here, but think about it: if Sloan sees a bit of the versatile multi position guy about him (the Bird and Frazier comparisons) what better way for him to learn than to be AK’s understudy? Could he be an ‘AK-style’ wing player?
Thoughts?
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this is the voice of reason
why don’t we 1) see how the kid does and what kind of attitude he brings to the summer league/training camp; 2) give sloan and koc a little credit for having learned a little about basketball in their combined 236 years in the league before we 1) declare him a bust; 2) call for koc’s head
I don't think he'll be an AK-style wing
AK is more defensive-minded and less of a shooter.
I’m thinking like a CJ-style guy, though at times he also seems like a mini-Okur
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And I've heard enough Boozer Bashing
Whatever is said in defense of boozer, or against him, I’m not one to disparage the contributions of jazz players.
We've seen Boozer play with the Jazz
(or get hurt or whatever) so we know what he brings to the table, both offensively (great post player, 20 & 10 guy, potential go-to-guy, etc.), unrelated to the game (yelling) and defensively (pretty much nothing; he needs help defenders around him).
We’ve seen Hayward play with the Jazz a total of 0 seconds.
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exactly, boozer is a good third option for a team, i agree with the report that the magic think boozer would be a nice complimentary player for howard, and vice versa, he’s not a good help defender, but with someone like howard who owns the paint, boozers defensive limitations will be minimized,
i’d thought the jazz would’ve tried to work a fesenko or some defensive center into the lineup now…now lets open up the fesenko bashing,
i’d like to hear what kind of feedback you have, and im interested to see whether he’s open to personal attacks as other players have been, and even some posters.
I am pretty sure that K Fes +/- rating is better than boozers
Its not boozer bashing if it is just explaining the stats. It would be awesome to have dwight howard on the roster, and its good to know that boozer would be great with the best or near best center in the game. Pretty sure Zach Randolph would be awesome with Dwight Howard covering his back. all the arguments about boozer are why he is not the answer as the Jazz 2nd best player. thats all we have ever argued. Millsap would also be unbelievable with dwight howard.
We don't have a defensive center
Okur? Nope.
Koufos? Nope.
Fesenko? Maybe, but he doesn’t pay attention during time-outs, which Sloan hates, so he’s not going to get a shot
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Fes
has to get a shot this fall if he is resigned . . . and i think Jerry knows he needs to handle him a bit differently . . .
don't be hatin on my syntax
by jazzin'jimbo on Jun 30, 2010 9:20 AM MDT up reply actions
this makes it sound like
in a situation where fes doesn’t pay attention and sloan hates it, sloan is the one with the problem.
They both have problems
Fes needs to wake up.
Sloan needs to realize that he’s the best option (well, between him and Koufos) and also realize that he might be too dumb to pay attention in the huddle.
Maybe Fesenko is just too tall to huddle with the rest of the team… he’s trying, but he’s so tall it looks like he’s not ;)
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Cut the kid some slack.
I’d be checkin out all the hot babes on the front row too if I was on the bench/huddle.
Those lower seats can produce some hot mamas.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
the boozer love going on from the jazz side is part smokescreen to generate trade interest, it’s also must be legitimate because KOC has said he is going to offer boozer a contract; but there is also much more positive hype in the national media for boozer as well. this is all good for the jazz and boozer, if the jazz can get a good sign and trade like gortat and bass, it leaves me optimistic that sloan can tweek things and still hit the 50 win mark, if they can’t get a good sign and trade i’d like to see the jazz keep him.
what about the Millsap bashing
In my opinion, the underestimation of Millsap is more offensive than criticizing someone who has received all the national attention and is being lauded as one of the superstars in this summer’s free agency. Millsap has always stepped up when given the opportunity to start, and to imply that he can’t man the starting position is worse than being critical of the current starter.
He can step in and start
the 2 major worries…
1- Foul trouble. This has plagued him for a while, and you have to worry (no matter what the stats say in small sample sizes) about it becoming a bigger problem if he’s getting more minutes consistently.
2- He’s not Boozer. That’s a good thing defensively, no questions asked. But offensively, you’re losing the guy that was your 1st or 2nd option… a role I don’t think Millsap is ready to fill (yet?). You could run your offense through Boozer, its his game. Millsap, though, is more of the guy that lives on put-backs and attacking the glass and all. His post-game still needs some work (Boozer was solid there… if you could get him to go inside), and I’m still not a fan of Millsap putting up jumpers all the time. We’ll see though
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that is a common misconception of millsap
Watching Millsap play I think he is actually a better pick and roll option than Boozer. His jumper is as good as Boozer’s and he has more tendency to drive hard to the basket. But his foul trouble is a bit of a concern (especially since the majority of fouls called on him are total BS). His fouls are out of aggression and I would take a guy willing to use up his fouls rather than a guy who fouled out how many times last year? (i think it was once boozer)
I don't know
as the season went on, I became more and more wary of Millsap taking jumpers. I’d much rather see him working in the paint, which is where I think he’s best. Especially when you consider that if he steps out to shoot a jumper, we have no one in the paint…
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He is Better in the paint
I agree he is better in the paint and I would rather have him there also, but by hitting a few of those 15 footers it opens the lane up a lot for him. You are right about not having anyone in the paint though when he takes one.
Millsap
I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about Millsap being affective on put-backs and on getting buckets in general without being the 1st or 2nd option on a play. I think that is a strength that not a lot of players have. If you look back to the 41 games Boozer missed 2 years ago, we ran the offense through DWill and Memo and Millsap got a lot of his points just off of his activity in the sets. I do think this year Millsap also showed that he can score when he is a first or second option, but we only saw a small sample of it. I do think though that a guy who can get a double double everynight without having plays called for him is very impressive. I also didn’t like his 15 footers to start the year, but as the year went on I got a little more comfortable. I think Millsap is such a unique talent and that he will be fine in the starting role.
Sadly
Memo won’t be around to start the season either. I’m not comfortable just making Millsap the #2 option. Of course, there aren’t many other options… AK? Miles? Matthews? Fesenko?
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i wonder if our sense of millsap's foul trouble
is inflated by how often he gets shafted by the refs.
per 36 minutes, he avgs 4.5 fouls per game over the past two seasons. since boozer has never avged more than 35 mpg as a jazzman, this might not be as big a problem as we think.
as for millsap not being boozer, players aren’t born ready to play. they develop into that role. millsap is 4 years younger than boozer and has not had a chance to be as a starter. to say he might not be ready and you don’t know whether you can run your offense through him is fair, but if you’re going to keep him on the bench forever, you can’t say that he doesn’t have the skills needed to be a starter or that he can’t be that guy, because he hasn’t had the opportunity to prove anyone wrong.
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