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Let Matthews Go? That Would Be Insane.

It's probably too soon. It's probably overkill from what's already been posted. But I still want to make it known:

If the Jazz fancy themselves building a team for a championship run they need to keep Wesley Matthews.

I'm not talking about chasing a championship next season. I don't think many of us expect that, barring some crazy stuff happening with the trade exceptions. But I am talking about building a team that is a legit contender sometime between 2012 and 2016.

You see there are certain things a championship chasing team needs. Certain things that it can't do without:

1) A really freaking good player. A top-10 type player. This guy needs to be willing to play team-ball, take over when needed, lead the team, care about winning more than his own stats, etc. But above all else, he has to be really, freaking good.

Here's some from the last 30 years of champs: Kareem, Bird, Moses, Magic, Isiah, Michael, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Garnett. Now here are some of the runners up: Dr. J, Moses, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Hakeem, Drexler, Barkley, Ewing, Shaq, Payton, the Mailman, LeBron, Nowitzki, Dwight Howard, Garnett, AI, Reggie Miller, Jason Kidd

2) The sidekick(s). Usually 1 or 2 guys. These are All-Star caliber players—sometimes even better. Often players crummy teams would consider paying a maximum salary to, even though they probably can't carry a team by themselves.

Again, the list: Magic, Parish, Dr. J, McHale, DJ, Worthy, Kareem, Dumars, Pippen, the Admiral, Kobe, Shaq, Ginobli, Tony Parker, Pierce, Ray Allen, Pau.

Here's some runners-up: Magic, Dr. J, McHale, Parish, Worthy, Kareem, Drexler, KJ, Majerle, Penny Hardaway, Stockton, Hornacek, Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Rashard Lewis, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen

3) The dirt y work guys. These are the role players whose play turns a good team into a great one, even though nobody even mentions them at first. These guys drift out of the limelight even though they are really good and their contributions matter as much as those of the star and the sidekicks.

Of course you want a list: Michael Cooper, Mychal Thompson, Dennis Johnson, Bill Walton, Dennis Rodman, John Paxson, Big Shot Bob, Bruce Bowen, James Posey, Eddie House, Derek Fisher.

 

The mistake we all make is thinking that #1 is the most important, #2 is next important, and #3 is least important. Or that #1 is a hundred times harder to find than a #3 guy. Or that the #2 is harder than a #3. Or, worst of all, that #3 guys are pretty much interchangeable.

Here's the truth: You will not win a championship unless you have the right guys in all 3 spots. It will never happen. It has never happened. And it has to be the right guys. You cannot substitute Pau for Boozer and expect the Lakers to be as good. And you can't just plug in random guys in the #3 spot and expect it to work (this is the mistake I have the feeling Miami is going to make).

#3 guys save seasons. Celtics never make the '87 finals without Dennis Johnson. They never destroy the world in '86 without Bill Walton. Late 80's Lakers have no shot at their titles without Michael Cooper making covering for Magic's atrocious defense. Pistons never win back-to-back without Rodman guarding the opponent's best player (from SG to PF). Bulls never win in '93 without Paxson hitting the big shots and defending KJ. MJ's Bulls never beat the Jazz without Rodman getting under Karl Malone's skin. Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe each have two fewer rings without Big Shot Bog bailing them out. Boston's latest Big Three never win without House and Posey.

And you can't just randomly substitute these #3 guys either. You can't switch Paxson with Bimbo Coles. You can't replace Rodman with LaPhonso Ellis. You can't switch Big Shot Bob with Joe Smith. It has to be the right guy. And the truth is sometimes these guys are the hardest to find—because their stats and paychecks blend in with about 200 other dudes in the NBA. Nobody would ever look at Robert Horry's lifetime stats and lifetime paychecks and realize "here's a guy who will single-handedly swing 4-6 NBA championships." You'd think that trading Horry for Shawn Marion would be a steal. And you'd be dead wrong.

 

The Jazz had something special in Wesley Matthews last year. As a rookie he was cited by the team as its best defender. Remember all those shooting guards who lit up the Jazz for 40 and 50 points a couple years ago? Kobe time and time again? Wade? Gilbert Arenas? Linus freaking Kleiza? Remember when Bill Simmons joked that every shooting guard in the NBA had circled the games against Utah? And remember how awful it was to know it was true?

Well last season the most any shooting guard scored against the Jazz was 34 points. Vince Carter. He shot 39% and the Jazz won. In 3 regular season games, Kobe had 1 decent game. He shot under 30% in the other two. I looked at the box scores of every single game, and there are more SG's scoring in the teens than in the 20's. And only a handful (about 5) in the 30's. That wasn't the case 2 years ago.

Remember back in November when the only thing that made watching Jazz games worthwhile was seeing Wesley Matthews? Remember the big three's that inspired the O My Sweet Wesley acronym?

And he was a freaking rookie!

You can't just replace this with some random swingman. He hit 3's, he could cut, he played tough, he played great man-to-man defense. I've mentioned it before, but it's worth mentioning again. He pushed Melo and Kobe into awful, awful shots—shots where they were completely off balance and had no outlet pass available. Yeah, they hit the shots. But that kind of defense against shooting guards and some small forwards (often the team's best scorers), over the course of a season, can be 5-10 wins. That's the difference between a #1 seed and a #8 seed.

You can't just replace this kind of play with a random dude. I know it was just 10 PPG. I know it was just a couple rebounds per game. I know you can point out to a lot of guys who could do particular things better (KK is a better shooter, Ronnie B. got more steals, so-and-so would get more rebounds). But you know what, basketball is more than just the stats.

Wesley has the attitude and skills and heart to be an all-time #3 kind of guy. A Big Shot Bob. A James Posey. A Derek Fisher. A Dennis Rodman (without the weirdness). And you absolutely cannot win a championship without the right kind of guy as your #3.

Two years ago the Celtics won the championship because when Ray Allen went cold Posey and House could bail the team out. This year the Celtics had Nate Robinson (who had better stats, incidentally). And the Celtics lost a championship they should have won.

The right #3 guy makes all the difference in the world.

And letting go of the right #3 is just as crazy as letting go of the right #2, and sometimes as bad as letting go of the #1. Because it's easy to see who the right #1's are. It's easy to see Deron has it. It's easy to look at Pau or Bosh or Ray Allen and say, "he can't be The Man, but put him with the right #1 and that team will dominate." It's sometimes harder to find the right #3. So when you find him, you keep him. As long as you are trying to build a championship team. 

 

The Jazz have a #1. And Deron's still getting better. They're looking for the right #2. This season will be, in part, an experiment to discover if Paul Millsap can the right kind of #2. Or if AK back in a leading role can be. They're also going to see if Hayward and CJ can be dependable #3's. But if they let Wesley go, they'll be letting go of  a #3 most teams would desperately want. So desperately that Portland is willing to pay him $34 million to backup Brandon Roy for 12 min/game.

All comments are the opinion of the commenter and not necessarily that of SLC Dunk or SB Nation.

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Good write-up

It is a ton of money, but the best thing for the team a few years down the line will to have Matthews here in Utah. He is a #3, we have a #1, here is hoping to KOC using a trade exception to find a two (hopefully one over 7 feet tall).

Follow me on twitter @JD23UT

by JD23UT on Jul 11, 2010 2:00 PM MDT reply actions  

Well said

Excellent write up.

I’m in concurance with keeping Mathews. I’ve always thought a team needed at least three very good player to be competitve. I remember the Stockton, Malone, Hornacek era that seemed to be an answer to getting to the championship. Sadly, the Jazz have been looking for something similar since.

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by Alpha6 on Jul 11, 2010 2:37 PM MDT reply actions  

I think

It’s too early to say he’s a good #3 yet. He only had one season and he played well. However, I think it should be matched. There is no one out there I really want more than I want Matthews.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Jul 11, 2010 3:51 PM MDT reply actions  

Do you guys have the $$$ to match now?

I am a Trail Blazer Fan through and through. And I must say I am intrigued by the offer we just signed. I think its a real + for us. Front loading it the way it has been, can you guys afford to match it? Especially having to sign that big guy back? With the LT it would cost you guys $18 million next year for him. Do you think you can afford to do that?

by OllieG123 on Jul 14, 2010 4:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

no I don't think the Jazz will match

I guess it is possible. I also don’t think that all 9 Mil go against the luxury tax. I think it is more like 5 or something but still…

by davidthecomposer on Jul 14, 2010 4:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great Read

Although Wesley is a great #3 guy as you put it – how much is that worth?
$5mill+ a year is pretty steep – especially when you could turn that into 2 other role players.

With that said I would much rather Wesley stayed on with the Jazz then get lost on the bench in Portland.

"Great effort springs naturally from great attitude" - Pat Riley
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships" - Michael Jordan

by PsyKoMunKy on Jul 11, 2010 5:29 PM MDT reply actions  

5 million

a year is around what starting decent SGs go for though….

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Jul 11, 2010 5:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

True – but it’s a big call to make on a guy after 1 season.
I really like Wesley and would hope he stays with the Jazz but Portland have made it a lot tougher decision than it should’ve been.

"Great effort springs naturally from great attitude" - Pat Riley
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships" - Michael Jordan

by PsyKoMunKy on Jul 11, 2010 7:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

But we have to stop assuming that any 2 role players are going to do for the team what Wesley did

Finding the right #3 can be just as hard and as finding a good #1. And the ration of good #3’s to lousy ones is pretty low when you consider how many random players are in the NBA.

Put it this way: if you were Miami and salary cap figures were no issue, how much would you consider paying Big Shot Bob (assuming he was in his prime) to play for you?

I think $5+ million is steep only because Wesley’s a second year player and we’re still dealing with a mixture of potential and performance.

But who would you rather have: Shawn Marion for $7 million or Wesley for $5+ million? Who would help the Jazz more? Or $6 million for JR Smith vs. $5+ million for Wesley? $7 million for Shane Battier or $5+ million for Wesley? (actually this is a great comparison, because most teams would kill to have Battier for the exact same reasons). Would you rather spend $10 million for Bad Porn Maggette to be your starting SG or $5+ million for Wesley?

To me it’s a no-brainer. I’ve never heard of a solid player making $5+ million per year who hits threes, plays great defense, who fills in the gaps left by the #1’s and #2’s ever be called a salary cap killer.

Again, the only thing is we are still dealing with a question of Wesley’s potential. He has not yet shown how good he’ll be.

But I think it’s worth it. Even if he never gets any better, he would be worth it. He’ll be making about 1/10th of the entire salary cap. That’s a decent deal for a starting SG who doubles as a great #3.

I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time

by Yucca Man on Jul 11, 2010 8:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

Good points – I guess being an older NBA fan $5mill seemed steep.
In context to other talent it does seem very reasonable considering the trouble finding not only a good #3 option but any guy that can reliably guard the opposing team’s SG/SF.
 Here’s hoping the Jazz match the offer – I wouldn’t like to see him sitting on the bench in Portland.
How much say in this does Matthews get? Surely the offer would be tempting to him but do you think he would be lobbying for the Jazz to match it or content to just see how it plays out?

"Great effort springs naturally from great attitude" - Pat Riley
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships" - Michael Jordan

by PsyKoMunKy on Jul 12, 2010 9:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

I am still leaning toward matching the offer, but the Jazz are doing the right thing by taking seven days to see what else is out there.

Maybe there is a better player that can be had for the MLE. Maybe a really nice shooting guard that will fit in with the team becomes available for half the cost.

I do love Matthews and he will be a good player, even in Portland. But it is a pretty significant contract and it would be hard to avoid the tax if they match. Not impossible, but hard.

The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.

by clarkpojo on Jul 11, 2010 9:07 PM MDT reply actions  

Rip Hamiltion and Gortat

From DNews today:

Other big men available through trades, according to ESPN’s Chad Ford, include: Al Jefferson, Tyson Chandler, Elton Brand, Emeka Okafor and Marcin Gortat, with the latter two perhaps being most intriguing to the Jazz.

Ford’s list of guards and swingmen on the block: Rip Hamilton, T.J. Ford, Hedo Turkoglu, Gilbert Arenas, Baron Davis, Jose Calderon.

I would feel more comfortable taking Rip Hamiliton (~$11M w 2 years) using Boozers TE and Gortat using Harpring’s. I have to believe a move like that would be more interesting to DWill rather than matching for Wes. I also feel matching for Wes could easily have a negative impact on renegotiating with AK next year.

Regardless I agree with Clark that waiting the seven days and exploring all options is best.

by jazzed on Jul 11, 2010 9:37 PM MDT reply actions  

I would

LOVE Rip hamilton and Gortat.

However, both those contracts would put us into the luxary tax. We’d still need to sign players to fill out the roster. That could put us in the 73-77 million range.

Dunno if the jazz would do that.

It’d def help the team though. Rip can create his own shot even though he is aging and Gortat would be a solid inside presence.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Jul 11, 2010 10:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm curious why matching Wes would negatively impact signing AK. That doesn't make sense to me.

Rip Hamilton is one of the few guys I’d be interested in as a replacement for Wes. But Rip isn’t much of a 3-point shooter and he can’t create his own shot (he’s a brilliant screen runner though). And actually Rip’s contract is worse than you say: $12.6 million for the next 3 years.

However I’d really be interested in Gortat, Chandler, and Okafor. Okafor would be the least risky—you pretty know exactly what you’re going to get from him. Chandler would be more interesting, but his injury history is worrisome. Gortat—everything I hear about him is that he’s very, very raw offensively but a great athletic, big presence on the defensive side.

Al Jefferson is intriguing to me. He’s big enough that he could be a center and the Jazz would avoid the Millsap/Boozer situation (remember, Hakeem was only 6’10" and Moses was even shorter). But his defense is pretty lousy. The question is would he pick it up playing for a coach and team that actually knew what they were doing? That’s happened before. Or would he be Boozer 2.0 and never pick it up. We all know that’s happened before too.

I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time

by Yucca Man on Jul 11, 2010 11:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

The more I think about it, the more I think these two options I like best

1. Rip + Gortat. Rip’s offensive firepower makes it less necessary to have it from the post.

2. Wes + Chandler. Chandler’s contract is big, but only for one year. We get to see if Millsap + AK + limited offense/good defense in the post is enough or if we need a more refined offensive player.

Yeah, both options turn the team into a luxury tax team. At the same time both options make the team better than last year’s.

Rip the most sure thing of them all, but his and Gortat’s contracts would really limit any future moves. We’d be sticking with this team for the next 3 years. I think it would probably click really well, but you never know for sure.

Chandler would be interesting because both his and AK’s contracts would come off the books at the same time, and both neither will command close to what they will make this year (if the Jazz want to resign either of them). Long term flexibility is preserved. Particularly since Wes’s contract is really only absurd for this year.

I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time

by Yucca Man on Jul 11, 2010 11:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

1 – Exactly my thoughts (Rip’s offense + Gortat defensive pres – or so I’m told)

2 – This is interesting – but what if both AK and Chandler end up having fantastic years? And realistically I just don’t see us getting Chandler with that expiring contract of his . . .

You are right that Rip is $12.5M but I think it’s for two years with a non-guaranteed 3rd – which lines up nicely with DWill’s contract and the money that was on the books last year for Booz. , , , ,

So here’s another less expensive idea – take Rip — and then sign Ronnie Brewer or even Shannon Brown and see how the young big’s do next year and what happens with Tomic. I know some are high on Gortat . . . but I’m still not convinced the ROI on $6.5 – 7mil @ 4 years is going to be worth it.

 Perhaps we have to give up CJ to get Hamilton but then we can keep Wes?? CJ and the protected Memphis pick which is probably useless anyway? Detroit want’s a good player or cap relief. Would that be worth it?

I really like Rip – even if that were the only big move. He would take scoring pressure off of DWill; help open up the inside for Sap; he is a very good passer; one of the best off screens; solid defender, and we really wouldn’t need his three point shooting (I would also argue that he can create his own shot). I also think his style and personality would be a great fit. I think with Rip the team is legitimately as good next year, and even better in 2012. If DWill walks, Hamilton could be gone at the same time and you have a good chunk of change to play with . . .

I would love to see Ninja, Rip/Wes, Sap, AK/Hayward, Memo/Fes/Kouf (Tomic?) for a couple of years.

As to what realistically happens: I’m guessing we don’t match Wes; end up resigning Brewer and land Okafor or maybe Jefferson. So that is my take and late night diatribe . . .
.

by jazzed on Jul 12, 2010 1:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

More on why Rip might be a great fit

Michael Rossenburg Detroit Free Press July 2

Click Here

found this after the fact actually which was cool

by jazzed on Jul 12, 2010 2:00 AM MDT up reply actions  

The more I look at Rip, the more I have a concern

He’s 32—on the down side of his career.

His FG% has plummetted over the past three years: 48% to 44% to 40%. Similar plummets to his three-point shooting. That’s what happens when wing players are just about done.

IF that continues, he would be a less effective offensive threat than Wesley. He’d particularly be lousy at spreading the floor. His man would probably not stick to him at the three-point line if he shoots 25% from there.

I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time

by Yucca Man on Jul 12, 2010 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

His

team has gotten worse over the last few years. I’m sure that effects how well he shoots day and day out.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Jul 12, 2010 12:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm sure that's part of it too

But it still kind of worries me. Because it’s what happens when 1) a good player and decent scorer suddenly has to do too much, 2) a good scorer loses his running mate and playmaker, and 3) when a wing reaches the end of his effectiveness.

Rip, unfortunately, had all three issues. So it’s hard to tell what the cause was.

I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time

by Yucca Man on Jul 12, 2010 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

And

He’s been crowded by the addition of Ben gordon.

I still think RIp has some gas in the tank. I dunno if it’s worth 12 million but ya never know.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Jul 12, 2010 1:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

Right

My hunch (and that’s why I used itallics and bold in the original statement) is that a lot of it was because Chauncey left, Rip no longer had help getting him good shots, and he had to take on a bigger role for the team than he actually is capable of.

But it still makes me nervous, because it’s the exact same symptoms of a swing-man rapidly going downhill.

I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time

by Yucca Man on Jul 12, 2010 1:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

aye

both Gordon and Chauncey leaving have made a difference I think. Also, sounds like he’s been disappointed at where Detroit is and really wants to compete.

I can’t see the front office actually going after him anyway . . . but I think it would be great to watch.

by jazzed on Jul 12, 2010 5:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think

Rip can create his own shot much better than people give him credit for. He’d be a scoring wing the Jazz have needed for a very long time.

Rip + Gortat, really would be one of the better situations for the Jazz. Two needs filled. It would put them in the tax for this year but the next 2-3 years on Hamilton’s contract would be very interesting to see how the Jazz would do.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Jul 12, 2010 12:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

Why matching this contract for Wes might impact renegotioating with AK next year

It’s the whole competitive thing. Haven’t I seen it floated around that AK has said he is willing to sign for the MLE after next season to stay with the Jazz? I just don’t see AK signing for the same as Matthews . . . especially if he has a decent year next.

No matter what AK might say, I can’t help but feel it could make quite a difference ultimately in how much AK will be willing to resign for . . . that’s where I’m coming from anyway . . .

by jazzed on Jul 12, 2010 1:46 AM MDT up reply actions  

Plus the Jazz need to be careful about "making DWill happy"

There are two different ways:

1. The LeBron way. Make impulsive trades and decisions that seem great at the time, make the superstar satisfied that the FO is trying, but doesn’t actually adhere to any intelligent team-building plan. We know the ending of this method (it doesn’t work, the superstar winds up dissatisfied in the end anyway even though he was thrilled with every single move at the time).

2. The Kobe way. Ignore the little rants that pop up. Make no trades designed to simply make the superstar happy (like Kobe’s pining for Kidd 3 years ago). Create an intelligent team-building plan. Look the other way when the superstar complains to the media. Stick to the team-building plan. We know how this method ends (team becomes good for the long-term, championship caliber if the chips fall right, and the superstar winds up happy despite all the intermittent complaining along the way).

Build the team intelligently and Deron will be happy with where the team is in two years.

Placate him every time a mood hits and end up with no cohesive team, no direction, a bunch of random players and parts that don’t actually fit, and Deron ready to bolt in two years.

I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time

by Yucca Man on Jul 11, 2010 11:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Exactly

The Kobe way is best. Not the Lebron way. Not listening to the whines for trading Bynum etc.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Jul 12, 2010 12:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

100% in agreement

no doubt! but i don’t think anything i’m suggesting is just throwing names out there to please DWill or anyone else. but I do think it’s a more aggressive short-term move.

also, what might have happened to the Lakes if Gasol hadn’t been handed over on a silver platter . . . i don’t believe for a minute that little stroke of ‘luck’ was in anyone’s long-term plans. (frickin lakers)

by jazzed on Jul 12, 2010 1:36 AM MDT up reply actions  

The Kobe way really?

Why if LeBron does something stupid does that make everything Kobe does right? The Kobe way is complete BS. You seem to forget about how the guy ran Shaq out of town only to watch Shaq win a ring in Miami why the Lakers were fighting just to be a playoff team. Phil left you had the Rudy T, Don’t ever underestimate the heart of a champion, experiment. You remeber that Kobe was demanding trades not just for Bynum but for himself too. Also do you think Kobe and Kidd would have been a bad duo? LeBron wanted Kidd too and the FO in Cleveland didn’t get that done so I guess that was them working the Kobe way, give me a break. The Lakers were stuck in the middle of the pack until they got gift wrapped an all star big man to play with Kobe. Ironcially the same kind of thing that Kobe ran out of town. I am so sick that because everyone is mad at LeBron right now that we have to be in Kobe praise mode. Kobe is still an A-hole, just because LeBron joined the A-hole table doesn’t mean that Kobe has to leave the table. The truth is there is no difference in the Kobe way and the LeBron way. The Lakers just got lucky with the Gasol trade and it changed how people look at 6 for 24 finals MVP Kobe Frickin Bryant.

by BobbyD31 on Jul 12, 2010 10:01 AM MDT up reply actions  

lol, calm down bud

We all still hate Kobe, and if you understood what you read — the commenters above were not praising Kobe, but rather how the Lakers handled Kobe’s tantrums.

by vizzle07 on Jul 12, 2010 11:17 AM MDT up reply actions  

Right, I agree. So why call it the Kobe Way?

It should be called the Lakers learned after Kobe dismantled their team the first time not to let him do it again way.

by BobbyD31 on Jul 12, 2010 11:23 AM MDT up reply actions  

Because

Kobe is the superstar that was retained. He was the all important superstar. Kobe sucks. Lebron sucks (I used to be a huge Lebron homer until thursday).

I don’t like either of them but there is a huge difference with how the Lakers have handled Kobe through the last decade and how Lebron has been handled.

It has nothing to do with the accusition of players but more how the FO has handled the whining.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Jul 12, 2010 12:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

I still have to disagree

I think the front offices handled both of them the same way. They both let what their superstars wanted direct their decisions. The Lakers front Office was so afraid to piss Kobe off that they let him run Shaq and Phil and Fisher out of town. How is that different than LeBron getting his way in Cleveland. You are right they did it because Kobe was the all important Superstar. That is the whole point to what I was saying to start with. Kobe said it’s me or Shaq. So by making Kobe happy they got away from the FO’s “Stick to the team-building plan.” That is the same thing the FO in Cleveland is guilty of. The point is you don’t let the superstar control the FO, I get that. I just was pointing out that it was a bad example. You could say post Shaq Lakers FO have not let Kobe control their decisions, but when FTL says, “there is a huge difference with how the Lakers have handled Kobe through the last decade and how Lebron has been handled.” I have to disagree. You could say that after ’04, but I don’t see how that counts for the last decade.

by BobbyD31 on Jul 12, 2010 1:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

The more I've seen of Shaq since the Lakers split, the more I don't think it was all Kobe

Shaq’s pissed off every team he ever left. He completely quit on Miami—and that was a Vince Carter in Toronto level of quitting. He destroyed Phoenix to pad his stats and make another All-Star team. He played as a partially animated corpse in Cleveland. The more we see of him the more I wonder if he hasn’t gotten way more benefit of the doubt than he deserves.

Shaq had refused to show up in shape for the start of the season for 4 straight years (when the Lakers traded him). He was in worse shape every year, getting older (and center’s tend to fall off the cliff before any other type of player), and his contract was HUGE! I think Kobe’s feud was part of the problem, but I don’t think the trade was done to appease Kobe. I think the trade was actually very reasonable. And I thought so at the time. I thought Miami sold their future for one shot at a championship. I was just surprised that their window turned out to be two years instead of one.

I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time

by Yucca Man on Jul 12, 2010 1:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying Shaq was innocent

I agree Shaq was no Angel in the divorce, but Kobe caused it because he had to be the man. As for the trade, Odom was a good pickup, but when you make a trade that directly makes your team a non playoff team and gets your trade partner a championship you have to make it. The Lakers had to go through Brian Cook, Chris Mihm, Smoosh,and Kwame all because of Kobe’s ego.

As for Miami selling their future for a championship, wouldn’t you?

 If you want to talk about quiting on your team look up Kobe in game 7 against the Suns a few years back.

by BobbyD31 on Jul 12, 2010 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

No

I would NEVER sell future success for a championship.

I’d rather have 20 years of being a decent team and trying to get over the hump than spend 15 of those years being basement dwellers for 1 championship.

No thanks.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Jul 12, 2010 2:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

Really?

I would much rather have a championship.
I love the Jazz as they are now… but knowing going into the season that the 2nd round is probably your max (barring a lot of luck) is really frustrating. I want the team to win it all.

RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
SLC Dunk
I'm on Twitter

by UtesFan89 on Jul 12, 2010 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

It's easy to say that now.

But after 10 years of watching your team in the basement only to win one championship.

Yea, no thanks.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on Jul 12, 2010 2:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

I am a die hard Braves fan

I wouldn’t give 1995 back for anything. I still want them to win every year and these last few years haven’t been pretty. I hold out hope that this is year is different, but no matter what I still have 1995.

by BobbyD31 on Jul 12, 2010 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

Um...

losing sucks. I know that. I’m a Pirates fan. They haven’t won since 1992.
They win a championship, though… and all of that is forgotten.

RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
SLC Dunk
I'm on Twitter

by UtesFan89 on Jul 12, 2010 4:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

And by won

I mean a winning season.
They’re lucky to sniff anything close to .500.
1 World Series… that’s all it takes to forget all of that.

RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
SLC Dunk
I'm on Twitter

by UtesFan89 on Jul 12, 2010 4:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

+1

Follow me on twitter @JD23UT

by JD23UT on Jul 12, 2010 2:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

Would I rather win a championship

and then bottom out to 15 wins two years later with no hope for anything better (barring a LeBacle)

or have the Jazz of Karl and John.

I’d take the Jazz.

I want championships. I’d love even one. I’d take 25 years of wavering between kind of crummy to mildly decent for one championship.

But I would never want a Heat redux. That team became putrid. They were sooooo bad.

I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time

by Yucca Man on Jul 12, 2010 3:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

The Heat seemed to have rebuilt ok

I don’t know if you saw, but they signed a couple of players, this last week.

All kidding a side, I agree I wouldn’t have given up the Stockton and Malone years, but if we would have won just one championship with them, I would put up with ten years of the Keith McCloud show in Utah.

by BobbyD31 on Jul 12, 2010 3:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Not fair that Jordan’s Bulls got in their way.
Jordan had 5 rings – he couldn’t let Stockton and Malone have 1?

"Great effort springs naturally from great attitude" - Pat Riley
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships" - Michael Jordan

by PsyKoMunKy on Jul 12, 2010 9:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

$

it all comes down to how much Miller is going to spend. Plain and simple. I don’t think the Jazz will want to pay Matthews that much $.
I also don’t think he is worth that much $ yet.
He was a perfect fit for the Jazz, but a lot of that was because he was expected to have a low price tag for 5ish years or so. Now he is a 5th starter-6th man on a team with weak-ish 2 guards.

by zdid on Jul 12, 2010 7:24 AM MDT reply actions  

Wesley was the perfect fit

because he was a perfect fit. His effect on the Jazz this season and in the future have nothing to do with his price tag. It was because of his defense, toughness, hustle, 3-point shooting, cutting, etc. It was his team-play.

And I don’t really get why there’s so much ranting about the money. The Jazz were prepared to offer as much as the MLE for him. Well, that’s still the offer.

And since when has a starter making $6 million/year who fills his role perfectly and helps the team win been a payroll albatross? I’ve heard of 7-foot stiffs who play 15 games, average 1.5 PPG and making $7 million be called a payroll disaster. But a starting SG? A dude who can guard the best SG’s in the league one-on-one and make them really work for every point?

I don’t get it. I don’t see any SG FA’s available that wouldn’t be a major setback. Much bigger setback than Millsap taking over for Boozer.

Besides, the contract—as absurd as the first year is—would put the team still $9 million under the luxury tax this year. And it will then become pretty reasonable in the future.

As far as I can see the offer is a bit more shocking than Millsap’s was last year, but the short term difficulties will be much smaller and the long-term reasonableness will be pretty much the same.

I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time

by Yucca Man on Jul 12, 2010 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

they should let him go just so the blazers are stuck with that contract for a back up, we’ll show them!

by handlogten on Jul 12, 2010 7:37 AM MDT reply actions  

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