Raja Bell -- Help me out, guys!
by vizzle07 on Jul 19, 2010 3:55 PM MDT
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PrintOk, so I am thrilled about the signing of Raja Bell and what he brings to the Jazz. I have always admired his toughness, his work ethic -- especially on defense, and his overall attitude. I actually didn't get to see him play when he was with the Jazz the first time, because I was on my mission from August 2003 through August 2005. So I'm really looking forward to seeing what he can do this time around as a Jazz man.
So here's the thing. I was talking to my dad yesterday, and I asked him what he thought about the Jazz bringing back Bell. He responded that he thought it was stupid and that he didn't like Bell. WHAT??? How come? Well, his response was that he didn't have a problem with Bell as a player, but that when Raja left the Jazz to sign with Phoenix, he and his wife made several negative comments about the Jazz, Salt Lake City, the team, etc. This was the first I ever heard about this. And from everything I've been able to find in research, it never happened. So my only explanation is that maybe my dad is confused and was thinking of someone else. I really couldn't say anything in response because I have no first-hand memory of Raja with the Jazz at all. So...
Did this happen?
Can you think of a different player who acted that way when he left?
Thanks in advance.
All comments are the opinion of the commenter and not necessarily that of SLC Dunk or SB Nation.
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There
have been many disgruntled players who’ve left. I don’t remember Raja doin that.
Even he did though, does it matter? Sure being classy is nice but…. all we really care about is his production on the court.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Yeah, I'd say it matters.
It would be hard for me to cheer for a guy who kicked my team and my city in the groin on his way out.
That said, everything I’m hearing today indicates that this didn’t happen. KFAN is going on and on about how smart Raja was to not burn his bridges here in Utah. I was mostly just curious if anyone remembered his departure the same way my Dad does.
Really?
Because he’s on the team again. Everything else is in the past. It was half a decade ago and he’s an older and more mature person. I’d cheer for him either way. As long as he plays his heart out it doesn’t matter whats goin on in the past.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Yep -- really.
I love the Jazz, and I take it very personally when someone insults my team or my hometown. But more than anything, IF it were true (which I don’t believe to he the case) I would be really disappointed because, for me, it would cheapen his signing with the Jazz. It would mean that it really was all about money (a la Boozer), and that the things he’s been saying (like the Jazz being on his short list of teams, being excited to be back in SLC) were just BS because that’s what he know we want to hear.
So yes. FOR ME, it would matter quite a bit. Glad to know that my dad was mistaken on this one.
by vizzle07 on Jul 19, 2010 5:25 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Fair enough.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
I don't remember that happening either
In fact, at the press conference today, KOC said something to the effect of having only one player ever call him and Jerry Sloan after he left the team and tell them how difficult it was for him to leave, and that was Raja Bell. Raja also couldn’t have been more complimentary of the organization at his press conference today. That doesn’t sound like a guy who also would have trashed the team and city on his way out the first time. Like FTL, I do generally recall some players being a bit disgruntled on their way out, but I don’t remember Raja being one of them.
Also, re: players your dad might be confusing Raja with...
Maybe Shandon Anderson? I love the guy, but I do recall him making some less than flattering comments about the team and city. Something to the effect of not wanting to play here anymore, not liking the lifestyle, etc. I also remember the fans booing him fairly loudly whenever he returned as a visiting player. The two were kind of similar players in terms of being good defenders and good role players, so maybe that’s who he’s thinking of?
Don't remember any disgruntled comments from Raja
I remember Raja speaking complimentary about the team and particularly Jerry Sloan. I remember the Jazz ready to resign him, but Phoenix stepping in first with a better offer (particularly a better team). I remember the front office wishing him well and Raja being appreciative of the fans and for the first team that ever game him a shot.
Here’s some guys who dissed the Jazz and seemed bitter when they left: Bryon Russell, and Donyell Marshall.
And I don’t remember Shandon dissing the team, but I do remember his agent making snide remarks about SLC and Utah.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Yeah, might have been Shandon's agent, not him specifically
I loved the guy so much, I tried to block out all the bad stuff about him. But I was at least aware of some mean things coming from his camp that inspired the boos he got whenever he came back into town.
and for what this is worth
years and years later when shandon was older (and probably more mature), he said he never disliked utah and that his years with the jazz were the best of his career.
fwiw
they’ve been saying (over and over) on kfan for the past few hours how raja did not burn any bridges when he left town.
So what's the lineup going to look like now?
Do we play Kirilenko at the 3 and Memo at the backup 4, or CJ at the 3 and AK at the backup 4? As much as I hate to send AK to the bench again, if we don’t do that we’ve got to make Mehmet Okur our backup power forward. Is that feasible?
Starters
Al J
Sap
CJ
Raja
Deron
Backups
Memo
AK
Heyward
Gaines
Price
Then we’re left with Fess and Jeremy Evans. That’s the best way I can make sense of it. Mostly okay, though it’s kinda scary that Sundiata Gaines could be Raja’s backup.
Blame where you must, be candid where you can, And be each critic the Good-natured Man. - Oliver Goldsmith (Excellent advice)
Go Jazz! Go Hogs! GO BILLS!
Ak is going to start
People have madea good point that Raja Bell will probably start at the 2 guard spot but CJ will get more minutes. Bell was brought in to guard the elite 2 guards on starting rotations.
Williams, Bell, AK, Sap, Jefferson.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Has CJ played the 2 before? Thought he was strictly a 3.
Would this mean Okur got moved to PF? Does he even fit as a PF in this system?
I dunno, I’ll be very interested to see how they shape these twelve players.
Blame where you must, be candid where you can, And be each critic the Good-natured Man. - Oliver Goldsmith (Excellent advice)
Go Jazz! Go Hogs! GO BILLS!
Here's my prediction about the lineup:
Starters:
C: AJ
PF: Millsap
SF: AK
SG: Raja
PG: Deron
Subs:
C: Memo when healthy, Millsap + Fes before then (maybe an occasional AK)
PF: AK + AJ + Memo. We’ll see lots of interesting lineups—going big, going small, going fast, etc., via the C and PF spots.
SF: Hayward + CJ
SG: CJ
PG: Ronnie
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I actually like the idea of Memo as a super-sub better than a starter
I always have.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Agreed
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
CJ Will start
Unless the Jazz sign a backup 4… Everyone was saying on here before that the Jazz would be fine because AK could back up Millsap at the 4 – his natural position. With no Okur I think that he will be too valuable at that position to waste. We all know that Paul likes to foul so I see AK getting some major minutes at that position. Plus CJ seemed poised to get an increase of minutes last year anyway, and AK is on the last year of a contract, and probably wont be back after this year.
Also, from all that I have heard from Jazz management, they seem to be saying that D-will, Jefferson, Millsap, and CJ are the core that they want to build around. Of course if CJ doesn’t get it done next year then all bets are off. Also, if Okur is healthy then I guess it is possible that AK could start at the 3.
I for one think AK would be more effective as the 4, especially against backups.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 20, 2010 9:21 PM MDT up reply actions
I could see that.
I wouldn’t hate it. Except that it leaves us very thin at the SG position. If we have AK backing up Millsap and CJ starting at SF. Who is backing up bell at SG? Price? No, thanks.
I think it’s much more likely to see AK starting at the 3. CJ backing up Bell at the 2. CJ will actually get plenty of playing time here. Then you split playing time at the 4-5 between Milsap, Jefferson, Memo, and hopefully Fesenko. I hope Memo is backing up Milsap at the 4 alot because he’s going to be a great sub while he works himself back to 100%. He’ll be a matchup problem because of his outside shooting and Jefferson’s post game.
I could see AK playing 4 for certain matchups but I think the addition of Jefferson kinda means AK is staying at the 3 and if he stays there I think he starts.
I also don’t get why AK isn’t coming back? AK has said he wants to finish his career here. I’m sure the F.O will do everything they can to retain him. He deserves to be retired here in Utah. I think it’ll be a freakin shame if that doesn’t happen. Also, contract years are usually when players step up their game the most and give hte most production, so why would AK being in a contract year mean he plays less?
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Possibly
You make a good point with the backup two. I kind of thought that AK would come in for CJ after 8 minutes or something, then at the end of quarter 1 (barring foul trouble) he could slide to the 4. Hayward really looks like a 2 to me, but I admit that Having CJ back up Bell at the 2 with Hayward playing 3 is also a possibility.
I guess personally I prefer better shooters at the wings with such a beast in the post, so that might be clouding my judgement a bit. We will have to see what happens. I’m still holding to my prediction though. I think CJ starts.
I really think that AK is gone after this year. He would have to sign a much much smaller deal in order to come back. . I hope I am wrong. I love AK at the right price.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 20, 2010 10:07 PM MDT up reply actions
You want AK to play 10 min/game?
Because that’s what’s left with Millsap starting. Seriously, check out Millsap’s stats as a starter: 38 min/game. You have to think in terms of minutes and playing time, not bench, backkups, etc.
Sloan said putting AK in the starting lineup changed the team around. Why would he change that? Does it make any sense turning that guy, the guy who totally transformed the Jazz from 9th place in the west to a top-5 type team, into a 10 min./game backup? Arrrgh!
I know you don’t like AK that much. I know you keep thinking of ways to trade him, cut his role, etc. Okay.
But there’s a difference between saying AK can be the backup PF and suggesting he come off the bench to back up the PF. One of AK’s biggest strengths is his ability to play any of the 5 positions. Just because he starts at SF doesn’t mean he’ll spend all 36 minutes there. He’s going to move around a lot.
And I still don’t know why you think AK won’t resign with the Jazz for less. Because all the other teams in the league are desperate to sign him to a max-contract? He’ll sign for less wherever he goes because, if for no other reason, nobody will be offering him ridiculous amounts of money.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Agreed
Not that I’m saying david is wrong. I could see Miles getting a starting spot. I just think it’s more likely he’d start at the 2 over starting ahead of AK at the 3
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Well
Lol we seem to disagree on a lot of things…
I’ll give you the short Answers,
Millsap won’t play 38 minutes per game.- Just because he did for a stretch when the Starting PF was out, doesn’t mean he will when there are more people to fill that Backup Role. I am not sure that Millsap will still be starting by the end of the season if Okur is back anyway.
I agree that Having AK play alot of Minutes (see, I’m using your minutes vs. starting argument) is important. The last four years he has averaged 30 minutes per game. 10 (or 16) at backup 4 and somewhere around 20 at 3 sounds like about 30 to me… So right on target there.
I LOVE AK. I’m just talking about roles here. He very well may close out games at the 3 anyway, and I would be Ok with that.
I somewhat agree that AK’s strength is being versatile. I think that is an asset, but I think his real strengths are help defense (better as a 4) and passing.
I would Like AK to sign with the Jazz. I am not 100% sure that he has healed the rift with Sloan, or that he is happy with his role on the team. I do know that I can see some other team over-paying for him and the Jazz letting him go like Boozer, Korver, Matthews etc. Do you really think this is not a strong possibility?
Sorry that we always disagree. I will say in my defense, that I did call that Matthews would be gone before the Jefferson trade, and also that I didn’t believe the Jazz had total confidence in MIllsap to replace Boozer. I guess we will see if they agree with my AK, CJ idea as well.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 20, 2010 11:55 PM MDT up reply actions
I meant to say that
one of Ak’s strengths is being versatile
by davidthecomposer on Jul 20, 2010 11:57 PM MDT up reply actions
I half agree
I agree that AK is going to get mins all over the floor. The way the Jazz have rotated the last few years it should be clear that most of the players play multi positions. I think AK starts, because we played a lot better with him as a starter as Yucca Man mentioned. Early in the year AK will get a lot of time at back up 4, but when Memo comes back I don’t see him there a whole lot.
I really disagree that the Jazz got Big Al because they didn’t have total confidence in Millsap. I think they got Big Al because we are thin upfront and Memo is going to be out for half the year and we don’t know how long it will take him to get back to being himself. We needed another big guy and we went out there and got the best big guy we could. If the Jazz didn’t have confidence in Millsap, they wouldn’t have matched the Portland offer last year.
I think that in hearing guys like
Gordy Chiesa talk about Millsap, you get a good feel for what the Jazz feel about him. I’m not saying they don’t have confidence in him as a player. I am just saying that they weren’t confident that he would be able to replace Boozers production.
You are WRONG if you think that Jefferson was brought in to replace Okur. He will do that because Okur is injured at the beginning of the season, but he was brought in to replace Boozers lost production. If Okur is healthy Jefferson will start along side him. Go Check Millsaps contract vs. Jefferson, and the ncompare it to Boozer and you will see what I am trying to say. Boozer and Jefferson are just on a different level than Millsap. But Booze ris the enemy now so whatever, I will cheer for Millsap against the Bulls.
If AK Starts at the 3 who is the backup 4?
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 11:41 AM MDT up reply actions
just to expound on my first point
JAzz coaches and front office people/ scouts are payed to objectively look at what a player is worth, and what role best suits them. Their jobs are on the line if they screw up and over-value a player. That is why I prefer to listen to these types of people to educate my opinion. Fans tend to over-value players on their team, especially if they are well liked and play hard. remember the NBA is a talent league, and Bringing in Jefferson was a move because the Jazz lost their most talented big man by far in Boozer. think about it, If Jefferson, Okur, and Millsap are all healthy who starts?
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 11:46 AM MDT up reply actions
It depends
If Memo is back to scoring 17 and Millsap struggles as a starter than Memo. If Millsap and Jefferson play very well together and have good chemstry then, I could see Memo coming off the bench. If they are all 100% healthy and we were starting the year with them all, I agree it would be Memo and Big Al. That isn’t the current situation. I think even when Memo comes back they will bring him along slowly, like AK in the playoffs. If we are playing well when he comes back and continue to play well with him off the bench while he is getting his legs back under him, I don’t think they will change in the middle of the year. If we aren’t really playing great they might change it up to try and get a new spark. I don’t think Sloan even has it cut and dry right now.
I agree that fans tend to over-value players on their own team. Memo is my favorite player on the Jazz so I am not against him starting. I also love Gordon Chiesa. He makes me laugh every time I hear him. I agree that Big Al was brought in because needed another big after Boozer left. I am not saying he was brought in to replace Okur. I also don’t believe he was brought in because Millsap can’t handle starting. And if we are being objective look at how Millsap has done as a starter and look at how he played in the playoffs. He was our only big that didn’t look scared against the Lakers. All I am saying is that KOC went out and got the best big man he could to help the team win.
As for the back up 4 with Ak starting at 3, I think it will still be AK. Much like how Boozer was our backup center for the last few years. So if Millsap gets in foul trouble and needs to go to the bench, we could bring in Hayward or CJ to play 3 and then move AK to 4. We could also bring in Fes and Move Al to PF, depending on the matchup. The backup at every postion doesn’t have to be on the bench.
Ok you have some good points
that I agree with in general. You have to understand about the playoffs though, that MIllsap was running behind the coverage with Lamar Odom covering him, while Boozer was being played by Gasol/Bynum. If Millsap is the focal point of the offense in that series do you think he would be any more effective? I tend to think that he would have been much less effective.
The fact is that MIllsap and Jefferson will start at the beginning of the season barring more injuries. If Millsap develops in to an All-star Caliber, or if the Jazz are tearing up the competition then yes, I agree he will start the rest of the season. I Also agree that Okur will be brought back slowly.
Millsap has been effective as a spot starter. We don’t know how effective he will be a sa starter. We will most likely never find out now anyway because the offense will run through Jefferson (exactly how it used to run through Boozer). Millsap is just not that guy. the Jazz knew it, and they brought in “that guy”. I still think Millsap will have a great year by the way.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 1:12 PM MDT up reply actions
I dunno
if you can say the offense is going to be run through Jefferson.
Our offense is run through PFs and Jefferson was brought in to be a Center not a PF. I dunno what his presence at the C will do since we haven’t had a post scoring Center in ages.
I still think the offense runs through Milsap at the PF.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Come on!
You guys are being dense about this. Do you really think that the Jazz are not going to run the offense through one of the best post players in the league?
Crazy
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 1:20 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm saying Sloan has a system.
That system is running the O through the PF. He doesn’t change his system. He changes the players more than the system.
Milsap is the PF unless you are putting him at Center where he is drastically undersized.
That’s all.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
I agree with you on this part
I haven’t agreed with a lot of what you said today, but you are correct on this. The offense will run through Big Al. Millsap will still put up good numbers though. When Boozer and Millsap were on the floor together the offense still ran through Boozer. I think Millsap will be more productive with Al because Al is a better option to run the offense through than Boozer, so Millsap should get more easy baskets.
Thanks
I’m just saying if the Offense will run through BIg Al, then who is Boozers replacement? I am going to say it is Al. Therefore he has more value (see contract) than Millsap because you can run the offense through him while Millsap play off of him. I Love Millsap as a player.. I just want to say that again.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 1:30 PM MDT up reply actions
I am kind with you on this
I think Big Al was brought in because Boozer left. The point the other guys are making is valid though in that Al has played more Center than PF the past few years. I think part of why the Jazz liked him so much is because he can play a legit center and still play PF making the 3 big man rotation more effective. I do think you are too caught up in price tags though. I also believe that that might be why you don’t value Millsap as high as some of the rest of us. It is tough to find a guy who can score 18 and get 10 boards without having to be the guy. I think Millsap can do that.
Ok this makes sense.
My value judgment of Millsap is based on 3 things:
1. Watching him play. He has great energy. He is a great rebounder. He plays well defensively for the most part (though elite players still take it to him as they do to almost everyone) He does not have a polished offensive game. For me, to be a Max level player you have to have an elite offensive game. He is the most valuable on your team IF you have somebody to take the pressure off him in the post. As “the guy” he would lose a ton of value in my opinion because of that lack of offensive skill.
2. How the Jazz used him – when Boozer was on the team he got minutes at the expense of Millsap. that means that Jerry Sloan and the Jazz coaching staff thought that Boozer gave them the best chance to win. I respect their opinions, as they have consistently put a good team on the floor, and made smart choices over the years.
3. His value on the market – this is two-fold. First, what are teams willing to pay him? Would any team give him what the Jazz payed Carlos and are paying Jefferson? Also, what do scouts, GM’s and people who have spent their whole lives judging talent say about him? In general they are skeptical that he could be a 4 on the Level of Boozer or Jefferson. They worry about his skill level, his body type, and his makeup.
So with all those factors, I have developed my opinion of Millsap – A great player, could be a starter on certain teams, but can’t be the best post player on a contender.
I agree that defensively Jefferson can play the 5. Offensively he will always be the focal point though as you have said. I do like the versatility, but I still don’t think that Jefferson is at his best as the 5. He may be the Jazz best option though, which is an area of concern.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 1:52 PM MDT up reply actions
The way I see Millsap
1. Basically agree. I tend to feel like Millsap is a little more skilled than you, and I don’t subtract points for not being “the guy.” I don’t think Boozer could get the points without having to be the guy the way Millsap does.
2. I think part of this is Boozer would act like a baby if he had been the 6th man. Two years ago when Boozer came back after his injury there was talk that Millsap might remain starting not to mess with the chemesty. Boozer’s response was, “I’m a Starter.” We struggled when he came back and limpted to the 8 spot with him as a starter. Boozer did do well last year in his spot though, so I can’t disagree with Sloan’s decision.
3.I think Millsap’s value on the open market was seen when the Jazz matched the Portland offer. If they really valued Boozer more than Millsap than they wouldn’t have kept Millsap and they would have signed Boozer this year.
Millsap is younger
2. Millsap came into the league behind Boozer. Boozer is older and more experienced. It made sense to keep him the starter. The fact the the Jazz were willing to match Millsap’s contract showed that they valued him equal to or more than Boozer (for the Jazz’s future). They willingly let Boozer go because they had no doubts Millsap could step in. Jefferson gives us the depth we lost.
Follow me on twitter @JD23UT
Not buying that
Booze was better. Jerry has started players, and the Jazz have traded away older players if the younger one is better (Brewer/ Matthews).
The Jazz Matched Millsaps contract for far less than Boozers contract. Reports are that they were willing to pay 12-13 Million to keep Boozer. That is almost double the amount to keep Millsap. They are simply not valued as the same player. Remember Millsaps contract was viewed as toxic because of the structure, but otherwise about fair for what level of player he is.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 2:28 PM MDT up reply actions
Ok
3 Quick points to ponder
1. Boozer already did get the points that Millsap did without being the Guy in Cleveland. I don’t see how you can’t subtract points for not being the guy. If you can’t be the focal point of an offense, then you are a complimentary player. complimentary players are not valued as highly (rightfully so) as Star players.
2. Boozer was always professional, and would have worked hard. Sloan doesn’t really seem to care much about that though in general. He just plays who he thinks is the best player.
3. The Jazz resigned Millsap, true. What was the money involved in that contract? 7 Mil per correct? How much is Boozer making? MOre than double that amount. If Somebody would have offered Millsap 12 Mil per he would have been gone. Again Boozer and Jefferson are making double the amount that Millsap is for a reason.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 2:25 PM MDT up reply actions
So what I get from this is
Boozer is a complimentary player who got a chance to show he could do more and he made the most of it. Now Chicago is overpaying for that. I guess they are paying double what they should be.
Lol
No what you get is that Boozers skill set was such that he could develop in to an Elite NBA scorer and power-forward given the minutes. In the opinion of the Jazz FO and also me (as shown by the signing of Jefferson to take over Boozers offensive role) Millsap is not that kind of a player. Chicago is overpaying for Boozer, but only by a few million per year. Boozer is a great player, but may not have been great for the Jazz (no defensive center etc). Lol if we keep this going pretty soon this thread will
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by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 2:45 PM MDT up reply actions
Agreed
I think we should just keep goin to see how long we can make it.
I think the problem with Boozers deal more than money right now is the years that he gets that money. If the guy missed a lot of games in his 20s, how much/ effective will he be in his mid 30s getting 16 mill a year? I think that will haunt Bulls.
I agree that near the end of the contract
it will be kind of a gamble. For the next few years they should get a good player though. I am glad the Jazz didn’t sign Boozer in retrospect, because they picked up Al who is younger, and longer.
I do think that the Money was also an issue from everything I read and heard about it. The Jazz just didn’t see him as being worth that much money.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 3:10 PM MDT up reply actions
It still depends
I think the offense is going to be run through the better passer. If that is Sap it will be through him but they still will run a lot of plays just for Al if thats the case.
+a million
By definition the offense can’t be run through a dude who can’t pass. By definition, that’s how the offense stops.
All depends on Al developing passing skills.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
reading the long, skinny thread, and SWEEP LA Get's the Triple 7's
and not just for his user name . . .
the offense will go through the best passer — and as much as i’m excited to see Al and think he will be fantastic — that part of his game will probably take a long, long time to develop. i see him becoming a better defender before he becomes a better passer . . . if ever. (i.e. McHale)
but hey . . . time will tell. can’t WAIT for camp to start and have NEVER been so stoked for a preseason.
Some Good points
I agree Millsap isn’t the guy that you need to run the offense through. I think that is why he is so valuable. He can score without having to be “that guy.” I actually think the offense does go through Al, but I think Millsap will still put up good numbers because he will be on the floor a lot more.
Your first statement is false though. Go back and watch Millsap vs Gasol and Boozer vs Gasol. Millsap was a lot more effective and efficient.
OK
I will re-watch that series. It is just one series though, and I remember MIllsap not getting the same attention as Boozer. I agree that Millsap can score without being that guy (hence he plays off of the guy who gets more money+defensive attention) which is why he is valuable. But he is not as valuable as “that guy” because you can’t build a team around him as your main low post threat. That is why the Jazz went out and got an elite low post player to replace the one they lost.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 1:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Offense runs through AK
Watch the games and weep, baby.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Are you saying that the Offense will run through AK this year, or that it did last year?
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 4:25 PM MDT up reply actions
It did last year and it will next year — as long as AK starts
Here’s the Jazz most common half-court set:
PG brings the ball up and drifts left.
PG passes to the wing setting up at the three point line.
PG cuts inside to participate in the screens, cuts, etc.
Wing makes the first real decision on where to pass, depending on what happens with the screens down low—usually 1 of 3 decisions: back to PG, into post player, or across the court to the other wing.
That was the way with Stockton and Malone (the primary wing was Hornacek).
That’s the way the offense worked after Stockton and Malone retired.
That’s the way the offense worked once Boozer and Memo signed.
That’s the way the offense worked once Deron came on board.
It’s the way Jerry Sloan has always run his offense. It’s the way he always will.
When AK starts, he is the primary wing Deron passes to immediately after crossing midcourt. AK makes the first real passing decision (Deron’s pass to wing is totally scripted).
The offense runs through AK.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I don't even know what to say about that...
Saying that because AK is the 1st decision maker on a common Jazz play does not mean at all that the offense runs through him.
If that were the case AK would lead the team in assists, or at least have a career average above 2.8 APG. The Truth is that the jazz run off that pick occasionally, but the real action begins either after the ball is played in to the post, or when the ball goes back to the point there is some pick and pop/roll action. That is Why Deron averages 10 APG.
CJ Miles, Wes Matthews, Ronnie Brewer all play the Wing, and there is no special designation that it should go to one person most of the time. Therefore those people are interchangeable.
So by your logic the offense was never run through John and Karl, or Boozer and Williams? I agree that Andrei (or whoever is at the wing) is an important cog in the offense, but all the players have reads and options on that set. And again I dare you to find the statistic where AK runs that play more than another Wing. It just is not true or verifiable.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 5:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Through:
def. “by means of an intermediary or an agent. " If the ball goes from A to C to D to E, and the next time down the ball goes from A to C to E to B and the next time down the ball goes from A to C to B to D. The most common point at which the play runs through is point C. That’s what through means. Basic grammar.
The wing acts as this initial intermediary. AK plays this role predominantly when he starts. (yes the play could go via CJ or Wes or Ronnie last year, and it occasionally did. But when Sloan put AK back in the starting lineup, AK predominantly played that role. I mean, watch the games. Particularly watch last January to March.
And that was the biggest difference Hornacek made when he came to the Jazz. He ran that intermediary wing role perfectly.
And you’re right, I won’t find that statistic. Because the NBA doesn’t keep statistics for things like best screen setter, best outlet passes, most times a hustle player created a turnover out of nothing. And it sure doesn’t keeps stats like most common recipient of the initial pass from a PG used to initiate the offense and decide where the next movement of the ball should take place.
You challenge me to find the stats. Well, I concede defeat. But I challenge you to rewatch the Jazz last January to March and count how many times AK played the role of the intermediary wing. I challenge you to watch the games and pinpoint any time during that run where Boozer was the Man the offense was being run through.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Hm..
What I am trying to say by focal point, running the offense through, is that The plays were designed to Get Carlos the ball in positions where he could take advantage of his skills and mismatches.
While I appreciate your condescension and slight of hand as a debater, you really don’t have a leg to stand on. Plays were run on the Jazz so that Carlos could get shots (hence being the focal point of the offense) If Carlos was unavailable, then other options were looked for. I guarantee there is not one single play where AK was the first scoring option. If Carlos wasn’t in the game, then different plays were run for different situations. I am trying to make the point that AK’s position could have been changed (and often was despite your examples that you claim I have to accept just because you “saw” them with your obviously professional film-watching skills )
Playing semantics with the word “through” is just a weak attempt to justify you emotional over-estimation of AK’s role. The funny thing is that I think AK is actually an important part of the team, but you take it to a level of making him perhaps the most important cog, and that is just not true.
I do challenge you to the stats because you are trying to make ignorant and ridiculous claims about players. You seem to value perceived hustle and toughness above things that really matter in a winning team: Skill and Talent. You would trade Carlos Boozer for Millsap – that is Ignorant. You think the Jazz run their offense so that AK can pass the ball around and be the point forward (that averages 2.8 assists per game) – that is ignorant. You wanted to keep Wes Matthews for a ridiculous contract- again ignorant. IF it isn’t ignorance it is certainly just becoming emotionally attached to a player, and then not looking at things realistically.
You come up with arguments like “I mean,watch the games” since you can’t back up your OPINION with logic or statistics.
And since you like to be condescending I will let you in on a little tip: The definition of something has nothing to do with proper grammar. Grammar is the placement of words in the correct order to form coherent written thoughts. Aren’t you a teacher?
But I digress… Look at Boozers assist per game rate.. then look at AK’s.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 10:58 PM MDT up reply actions
you can disagree with yucca man
or anyone else all you want, but there is no need for personal attacks.
give our manifesto a read (or re-read, as the case may be)
He was being condescending
I replied in kind. Although reading back on it, it would have been better not to engage.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 22, 2010 1:33 PM MDT up reply actions
I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT!!!!
by scrantonicity33 on Jul 22, 2010 5:10 PM MDT up reply actions
Link
for those who don’t know what I’m talking about
by scrantonicity33 on Jul 22, 2010 5:11 PM MDT up reply actions
And the real action does not begin after the ball goes into the post
The real action begins long before the ball goes into the post, when everyone’s setting screens on the weak side and then the players cut, fade, post, etc. You’re looking only at passes that lead to points. I’m looking at the pass that leads to the pass that leads to the pass that leads to the points.
And by the way, the Jazz run the pick and roll fewer times than any other team in the NBA. Well, sometimes tied with the Lakers for fewest times. That’s a stat you can look up.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I think consequential is the key
and that being creating points or in other words assists and Boozer 3.2 shows stronger than AK’s 2.7.
Then I guess we should only allow 1 pass per possession
Since the only pass that matters is the one that leads to the points. Modified Nellie-ball, here we come.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
but not all pass
are equal which is the point are was trying to make. The most important one is the one that leads to the score than ones that open up the offense with which is also more boozer than ak.
Yeah I heard the pick and roll thing on the Radio as well.
It doesn’t change anything. Boozer is the FOCAL POINT of the offense because getting the ball in his hands in scoring positions is the goal of the offense. You try to get your best players the ball in positions to score. That Role will now be filled by Jefferson.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 11:01 PM MDT up reply actions
david
You make a good argument . . . and if Al’s skill-set were even remotely the same as Boozers or even Karl’s we would see Jerry just plug him.
but Al’s skill set and strengths/weaknesses as a post player are not anything like those needed to ‘run the offense through’ Al. or at least plug him into that same role.
as FTL said and I’d like to expand: there will be changes to the offense this year to take advantage of the unbelievable true post skill AL has as a back to the basket 5. something the Jazz have never had. Jerry’s flex has NEVER included a scoring center with anyone remotely having Al’s skills at that position and it will only provide more options for getting the team “the best shot possible” per Jerry’s entire offensive strategy.
to do that there WILL need to be some changes to the offensive sets we’ve seen for years to take full advantage of the the talents everyone brings. and after 22 or whatever years it has been of seeing so much of the same . . . that will be pretty freaking cool.
if you are right and the jazz stick with the Flex as is and plug in Al into what either Booz or Karl was doing . . . I will buy you dinner . . . and not at Carl’s Jr. bro. and unfortunately my opinion of Sloan as a coach will also be diminished greatly.
I could go
for a 6 dollar burger now. Dang it Jazzed!
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
i can always go for a six dollar burger
but if davidthecomposer is right and Sloan just plugs in AL like Booze or Karl — I say we take him for out for steaks.
We discussed how through = main focus of offense if to get him the ball in scoring positions. It was a long and laborious argument.
So, Yes I think Sloan will adjust his offense slightly to get his most Dynamic post scorer the ball as much as possible. Whether or not Al takes advantage of that to find other people is somewhat debatable.
From what I have heard as well, Jefferson can shoot out to about 12-15 ft anyway.
I totally agree that there will be changes to the offense, but that being said, Al Jefferson will take ofver for Boozer as the focal point/ guy who it runs through/ guy who is getting plays run for him to score (all basically the same thing per my last argument)
I think everyone is getting bogged down by “running the offense through” and I admit that it is my fault since that was the expression that I first started with. I thought that I tried to clarify what I meant – In fact I know that it was clarified through the course of this discussion.
The Original Argument (after the CJ miles/ AK starting one) was simply : Will the Jazz be using Al Jefferson to replace Boozer (his production, role in the offense ( not just the flex, but all the offensive sets, and as the main focus of a high percentage of plays etc) or will that Role now go to Millsap.
I will take your bet for food, but unfortunately I am moving to New York in a week, so it might be a little tough.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 22, 2010 8:58 AM MDT up reply actions
Comparing contracts to judge talent is a bad idea.
Would you say AK is clearly better than Jefferson and Boozer. Millsap’s contract makes him very good for what we are paying him, it doesn’t mean he is inferior to Boozer and Jefferson. For example, How much is Joe Johnson making this year…
Follow me on twitter @JD23UT
I disagree
I knew that would be point brought up so I should have explained further.
In general, teams value players based on skill level, and performance. There are obviously outliers to this (AK, Jermaine O’neal a few years ago come to mind) Millsap is payed like a good power forward in this league. Boozer and Jefferson are payed like elite Power forwards. Do you think that If Millsap were a free agent that he could demand the kind of contract that Boozer or Jefferson could? That was my point. I would also point to statistics and skill level as to why Boozer and Jefferson are better players- thus more highly valued financially by teams- than Millsap.
Using Joe Johnson as an example is Ok, but he is an elite scoring shooting guard in the league. Was he overpayed? Yes he probably was, but not by an incredible amount or anything…
What I am trying to say is that in general NBA executives are not idiots, and Talent+ performance tend to set the market for a player.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 12:58 PM MDT up reply actions
Do you think that If Millsap were a free agent that he could demand the kind of contract that Boozer or Jefferson could?
Millsap hasn’t had the benefit of starters minutes like AJ and Booze have had. He’s been playing behind one of the top PF’s in the league. When Millsap becomes a FA again, yeah, I bet he will get that kind of money.
Agreed
Milsap hasn’t really been given the chance to show whether or not that he is worht the same kind of contract as Boozer and Jefferson. That doesn’t mean that he’s not worthy of the contract. He just needs to be given the chance to prove it.
I’d be willing to pay 7-10 million for Milsap as he is now. If he can up his numbers little more as a starter and avoid the foul problem I could see him being a 10-13 million dollar PF.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Joe Johnson not that overpaid really?
Anytime you can get a guy who is now 29 for the next 6 years at 120 mill that averages 12.8 points per game in a playoff series that you get swept by 20 points per game you have to lock that down.
HE is an elite 2 guard
I agree he is over payed. But we are talking about the difference between a Max player or near max in Boozer-Jefferson, and a 7 million per year player in Millsap ( I believe that is the correct number). Joe Johnson is one of the best 5 players at his position in the league. Boozer and Jefferson are probably top 5-8 at their positions. Millsap is nowhere near that level, though he is a very solid player and a Matchup nightmare off the bench.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 1:16 PM MDT up reply actions
How do you know
they are runnign the offense through Jefferson and not Milsap. Everything I’ve heard indicates that Milsap is the starting 4 and Jefferson is the starting 5. Our offense runs through PFs.
So why would that chance just cause Jefferson is here?
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
This
was meant for down below’s comment.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Ak
is making more than both Jefferson and Boozer yet you are saying he is a back up. So then why does Jefferson’s contract mean he is a starter but AK’s isn’t? I don’t understand how contract amount means you’re a starter or not.
I still think Jefferson was brought in to play Center. Milsap by all means is the starter and I think Memo comes off the bench. Even if Memo continues to get healthy I think he comes off the bench. Ak will play a few minutes at the 4 but I doubt he plays many there. He isn’t the backup PF. He’s too valuable to just be a backup PF.
You rotate Milsap, Jefferson, Memo for most of the minutes at the 4-5. WIth Evans and Fes getting the garbage minutes or to help during foul trouble. I actually really lovet hat rotation. I think the combos of Milsap + Jefferson, Memo + Jefferson, and Milsap + Memo, are all dang good combos.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Ok
Well I addressed the AK situation. There are alot of reasons why AK got the deal he did. It was based on potential on a vastly different team. I stand by my point that in general players salaries show their value over their careers.
I dont understand on what you guys are basing this belief that Jefferson was brought in to replace Okur at the 5? Is it just because you like Millsap, and want him to have a chance? Jefferson is a 4. His natural position is 4, not 5. The Jaz zlost an All-star caliber 4 this offseason. They then went out with the trade exception gained from the departure of said 4 and got another All-star Caliber 4.
I like Millsap too, but I also can look at the situation objectively and see that a Millsap, Jefferson frontcourt would not get it done. Jefferson is not coming off the bench because he is just too good. Millsap is very effective coming off the bench. At the beginning of the season Okur will most likely not be playing so it wont be an issue, but if he were healthy, is there any question that Millsap would be coming off the bench?
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions
The Jazz made Millsap Boozer’s replacement when they matched Portland’s offer. They knew Booze wasn’t going to be here long-term (although I think they believed he would opt out…)
Even if Memo were healthy — I think at this point in his career, he’d be more than willing to accept a 6th man role on this team. I agree — AJ was brought in to play the 5.
4-5 whatever
you can call it what you want, but If the Jazz were bringing in Millsap to replace Booze rthey would run the offense through him correct? They are running the Offense through Jefferson because he is taking Boozers place. Millsap will play off of Jefferson.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 1:18 PM MDT up reply actions
No
it’s cause Jefferson is longer than Boozer and plays the POst better than Memo or Boozer ever did. Jefferson could be a very good Center, especially with the players around him and the way our defense is run. Jefferson should be a 5 in this offense. That’s my opinion. He can be a much better Center than Memo ever was.
My love for Milsap has nothing to do with Jefferson playing the 5.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Ok well I don't know how to argue if you believe that
one of the best post players in the league will not be the focal point of an offense. His natural position is 4. MIllsap has never shown that you can run the offense through him.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 1:26 PM MDT up reply actions
In his interview
AJ said that he’s been playing the 5 his entire career. He is listed as a C/PF. That’s Center first. Then Power Forward. How is his “natural” position the 4?
Look. The Number 4 and 5 in the Jazz system really doesn't mean anything
They are kind of interchangeable in theory. the Jazz will play Jefferson as if he were Karl Malone or Carlos Boozer. We will all agree that Boozer was the 4. Can we all agree that if Jefferson is coming to do the same thing as Boozer that he is taking over his role in the offense?
I also remember Jefferson saying that he thought playing with Memo would be great because it would give him more room to operate in the post.
They did this all the time last year when Boozer and Millsap played together. Boozer played offensive 4 and defensive 5, while Millsap played offensive 5 and defensive 4.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 1:35 PM MDT up reply actions
errr no
my points should have been made down here but they are above.
AL DOES NOT REMOTELY EQUAL BOOZER or MALONE or have remotely the same offensive skill set.
And my offer still stands. If Jerry plugs him in the same way . . . not only will I buy you dinner but I WILL be shouting at the top of my lungs for a coaching change and a removal from the Hall of Fame. Okay, maybe not the HoF but it will be time to ship him out.
But it’s not going to happen. But that is not going to happen because Sloan is the bomb.
You obviously didn't understand my argument
I never said that Jefferson was going to be catching the ball at the high post, turning and facing and shooting fade-aways. I understand that he is a different player than Boozer. The argument was about production, tweaking the system or the plays run (Which Jerry has done over the years), and getting your best inside player the ball where he will be able to score. At that point he becomes the focal point of the offense.
Thanks for bringing that up so I can clarify it again. If you go back and read the posts from earlier ( and possibly after this one on the chain I don’t know – it was long) you will see that we delved in to our definitions of “through”. It was thrilling…
Remember D-Will told Jefferson that he is going to make him an All-star. That would be replacing one All-star Big with another.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 22, 2010 9:05 AM MDT up reply actions
yes - thanks for the clarification
i better understand what you are saying – but i also still disagree to a point.
the emphasis of the flex offense is to “get the ball into the post” and also requires a lot of great interior passing and good decision making to be effective — because the flex is about getting the best shot available and not about getting the ball to any one player — even though it begins by getting it to the low post.
Big Al — to this point of his career — has never been a great post passer and has even been called a ‘black hole’. so as to the flex specifically, i don’t see Al as being the focal point post player to whom the ball “goes through” when running the flex. that role will fall to Sap, AK, or even Memo until Al develops and proves that part of his game.
does that mean Sloan will not put together sets to take advantage of Al where he will be the ‘focal point’ of a play specifically designed to get him the ball? of course it doesn’t. does that mean Sloan will not make adjustments in the flex to get Al the ball to score where he scores best on the block (like he did to get Memo shooting 3’s). of course he will. does not having Al be the focal point post player in the flex mean he doesn’t still have the potential to still be an All-Star? of course not because he has that much talent — just like i believe AK does — without having to have the flex run through them to start the offense.
(note: i do not think boozer has or had that same kind of all-star potential without him being the focal point of the flex as he has been).
but as to Al, the Jazz Flex, the 4-out 1-in motion offense, or whatever we want to call it: no, I don’t think Al will initially be the focal point post player to whom the offense is run – because Al doesn’t have/hasn’t shown that skill set to now. other sets designed specifically for him, yes, but not in the flex which is really the teams bread-and-butter offense and what makes the Jazz a great ‘team’.
I don't want to start another long argument over definitions
I will be interested to see the explanation of the Flex offense that is coming up soon by one of the members ( I forget which one).
We disagree on Boozer as a player. I do think he benefited from the Jazz system. I guess we’ll see how he fares in Chicago then. If he was all about the system we should see a sharp ( or even moderate) decline in his numbers.
I kind of fell like we are saying the same thing. Al, through tweaks to the flex, other sets or plays etc. should be the major focus of the offense in that he can score very effectively. I don’t think that we know if he is a capable passer because he wasn’t expected to pass much before. He very well may thrive in the Jazz system as-is.
I guess we will have to see what the Jazz do with Al. At this point it is all speculation and opinion. I have just seen Jerry change things up considerably over the years to get the Ball to his best player.
I suppose the underlying argument to this whole thing is that from what I have seen, Boozer and Jefferson are more effective Low post players than Millsap. that is not to say that Millsap isn’t very effective, but I see those two as being on another level. The more the Jazz can get those guys the ball, the better for the Jazz. (obviously not Boozer now)
I think, from the posts I have read here, that most of the other people think Millsap is better than Boozer given the minutes. By extension I think that it sounds like people would rather have Millsap be the focal point of the offense as opposed to Jefferson. If that is the case I believe that the Jazz will lose more games. I am almost certain that Jerry won’t do that.
So again we will just have to see. If you guys are right, and Millsap (or AK) is the focal point, then I’ll admit I was wrong.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 22, 2010 1:47 PM MDT up reply actions
And finally, the discussion finally makes sense
As far as I can tell you feel like the Jazz offense focuses primarily on a certain player. A post scorer. Boozer previously. Al (probably) next season. That the purpose of the offense is to get this guy the ball and let him score. That other options, including his passes to cutters and outlet passes, are a plan B-type options, variations of the main theme: get the ball to the primary post scorer and let him do his thing.
Thats where many of us think differently. We see the focus of the offense as getting a specific type of shot – the layup. That all other shots are plan B-type options, variations of the main theme: pass, and screen, and cut until you find the open guy in the paint for an easy layup.
In the first situation, Al as he is fits perfect. In the second situation, Al as he is has a lot to learn and develop.
Yes, Al will be the primary post scorer. Yes, Millsap and AK will probably be used as weak-side scorers more often than strong-side scorers. But to call Al the focal point misses what many of us believe about the offense: that it’s about a type of shot, not who takes the shot.
And when you look at the offense the way we do, suddenly calling Al the focal point makes no sense. How can a guy who (rumor and hearsay indicate) doesn’t pass well, can’t screen well, and doesn’t move without the ball well be the focal point of an offense based on passing, screening, and moving? If the offense is really based on these things, then aren’t the best passers, screeners, and off-the-ball movers really the focal points? Aren’t they the heart of the offense?
Maybe this is just a matter of definitions and angles of looking at it. But it’s kind of like calling Bill Russell an okay offensive player (which I think we’ve all heard and read at various times) even though his teammates said he was a terrific offensive player and that his passing, screening, etc., was the heart of their entire offense.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
yup - it's all speculation until the season starts
as to what Jerry will or won’t do. and it is going to be interesting — and why i’m personally so looking forward to it.
and yes, i also agree to an extent we are saying the same things because there will be adjustments to the flex and new sets put together specifically for Al. it’s just a matter of waiting to see how much of a focus there is for Al directly.
heck, who knows. perhaps Jerry might even toss out the flex all together and go up-tempo early offense game (aka showtime lakers) and then move into a high-low post offense to take advantage of Al on the low block and Sap, Memo, AK in the high post with the remaining three running motion . . . well probably not.
but regardless he has more options available to him then ever and it will be pretty cool to see what comes from it.
and as to Boozer
personally i don’t at all think Sap > Booz — but yes, others do. however, i do think Sap can be just as effective as Booz. so time will tell there as well. and if Booz continues to play at the same level or better in Chicago — i’ll certainly own up as well.
bring on 2010-11 – can’t wait!
Haha I could see Boozer getting Injured
and rendering the argument useless. Of course I guess that is one area where Millsap seems to have the upper hand on him.
Yucca I still don’t think we are quite understanding each other, though your last post did help me to get closer to what you are trying to say. I’ll just leave it at that for now.
Actually, being on this site is going to make the season much more fun for me. I agree bring on the season!
by davidthecomposer on Jul 22, 2010 3:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Here's why we say Jefferson will be the C
He played center at Minny. He played C at Boston. He said he likes to play C. Al is slightly undersized at C. Millsap is very undersized at C. Memo had a really crummy year last season. Nobody knows when/if/how effective Memo will be after the Achilles tear. And even if he was as strong as last year—well, he wasn’t so great last year.
Every way you look at it the Jazz need a center.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
This has all been discussed
Jefferson might be the guy contesting the tip, but on Offense he will play Boozers Role. It will be similar to when Boozer and Millsap played together last year.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 4:24 PM MDT up reply actions
I've seen it discussed.
I was answering your question. You’re probably right about Al being the primary post guy, but his role will be different in a lot of ways.
I actually kind of shudder about the team if Al doesn’t improve his passing and team-sense. It’ll become one of the most stagnant, inert offenses of any Jazz team ever.
At the same time, I get chills thinking about the team if Al learns to recognize open cutters and developing good passing. In that case we could be looking at one of the most unstoppable offensive forces in the history of the NBA. I’m not even kidding.
But a lot rides on what kind of player Al becomes with his first decent coach and first decent team of his young life.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
While it does leave SG odd, it doesn't leave PF odd.
Memo and Fess backing up the 4 is just as awkward as Price/Gaines backing up the 2. I think so at least. Sloan’s offense is based on getting the 1 and 4 to play together. Last year D-Will could work with Millsap when Boozer wasn’t on the court. D-Will to Memo? That just doesn’t seem like it’s going to happen because of the type of player Memo is offensively. He’s a great off-balance spice to our offense, but Memo has a specific lack of post play.
That and has Fess actually ever played the 4 in the NBA, does he know the steps?
Blame where you must, be candid where you can, And be each critic the Good-natured Man. - Oliver Goldsmith (Excellent advice)
Go Jazz! Go Hogs! GO BILLS!
You guys are acting like you just signed Bosh and Wade
Take it easy now.
Born purple and gold. Live purple and gold. Die purple and gold.
What up, Troll?
Try reading a post before commenting on it. It’ll make you look (a little) less stupid.
OOO
Lakers fan. What’s it like to go from a Bulls bandwagon to a Lakers bandwagon?
Are you a Patriots and Yankee fan too? Cause that would explain so much.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Bulls fan? hu?
No Im only a Lakers fan. Not a fan of baseball or football. Just soccer and basketball
Born purple and gold. Live purple and gold. Die purple and gold.
by RA37thriller on Jul 23, 2010 6:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Our signings are better than signing Steve Blake, I know that much.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Woa woa woa
They signed Raja Bell too right?
Wait no, he told Kobe to save his helicoptor gas.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Yea,
I laughed pretty hard when he mentioned it.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Your signing dont mean anything
Throw Matt barnes into the mix too. Our draftees have more promise as well. I’d pray Gordon works out
Born purple and gold. Live purple and gold. Die purple and gold.
by RA37thriller on Jul 23, 2010 6:58 PM MDT up reply actions
I'd be praying for more coaching from Phil, if I was a Fakers fan
Because we all know how well they went when Phil wasn’t coaching Kobe…
Possibly the southernmost Jazz fan in the world!
Twitter: @Texas
Good discussion guys
Nothing makes the off-season go faster than fans duking it out on message boards.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 21, 2010 1:56 PM MDT reply actions
It is a good discussion and has been an entertaining read. A couple thoughts.
After the 2008-2009 season, the Jazz were content on letting Carlos Boozer opt out of his contract and quietly move on with no problems. They were planning on matching the offer on Paul Millsap set by the market. When Boozer opted in, although not ruled out by the Jazz front office, the Jazz were very close to shipping Boozer to Chicago for cap space and Tyrus Thomas. this is fact and has been confirmed by several sources. It was the Blazers who nixed the deal.
When people were talking about who should start, Boozer made his infamous “im a starter” comments and Millsap said he felt like he was a starter, but “You know, Carlos has proven he can play basketball, and playing behind him another year or two or however long it’s gonna be — it’s good for me, better for me. I’m gonna try to continue to learn from him.” And Sloan admitted that there was serious talk of starting Millsap over Boozer. From the same Deseret News article: “Sloan also revealed Saturday that his coaching staff bandied about the idea of starting Millsap over Boozer, who earlier had missed 45 games with a quadriceps injury and subsequent arthroscopic knee surgery, for last season’s first-round playoff series against the eventual NBA-champion Los Angeles Lakers.”
And all Sloan ever said about his decision to keep Boozer as a starter were these two things:
1. “But when we went against the Lakers — they’re huge. And Boozer’s a bigger body. I know that’s one of the things I discussed with the coaches.”
2. “I’ve been reluctant (to start him), because he’s been so valuable to us off the bench,” Sloan said of Millsap. Or “I haven’t had a lot of, you might say, guys that really are in the groove of coming off the bench. And he seems to be a self-starter, ready to go. It’s not like he has to make three possessions before he’s ready to play,” said Sloan. This is something he has said about Boozer multiple times, that he needs to start, because Millsap is better at coming off the bench. Never has Sloan said, “we need to start Boozer because we run the offense through him, or Boozer gives us the better chance to win.” Now you can think that Sloan is just sugar coating it and doesn’t want to choose favorites. But I’m only going by what Sloan has said.
And if you don’t think the Jazz have faith in running the offense through Paul Millsap, I wonder who you think the offense was run through during the close to 50 games that Boozer was on the bench in 2008-09? It wasn’t Ronnie Brewer or Mehmet Okur.
While I agree that the offense is run through Carlos Boozer, I don’t necessarily think it was always the best thing. I’ve documented often why Boozer’s ability to run an offense and score efficiently are incredibly overrated.
And while I believe that Jefferson is going to get the ball often on the low block, it will be interesting to see how the offense is “run” this upcoming season. Millsap is a much better midrange threat than Al Jefferson at this stage in their careers. Isolating Jefferson at the top of the key like Boozer did, will not be a smart move. Jefferson is much better in the post. This is partly why I believe Jefferson and Millsap will play much better together than Millsap and Boozer ever did.
And whatever the starting lineups turn out to be, I think the best lineup is going to end up consisting of Millsap and Jefferson at the 4 and 5. Due to Okur’s injury, I am guessing that is how the starting lineup will look to start the season. I expect it to work and I expect them to get lots of minutes and most importantly, I expect Millsap and Jefferson to close out the majority of the games.
Luckily, Millsap, Jefferson and Okur will be much more versatile and less redundant than the last 3 years’ three headed monster.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Clark
You’re just effin amazing man. ’nough said.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Yes
The Jazz were thinking of letting Carlos walk. He had been injured, wanted more money, and didn’t have a great season (mostly because of the injuries and trying to come back a little too soon if I remember). Jerry’s statements can’t really be seen as supporting one or the other. I don’t really think that Jerry is much of a sugar coater though.
The fact of the matter is though, that Jerry started Boozer after he came back from injury, and at the beginning of this year. To me, that speaks pretty loudly. It is too bad we can’t get sloan to just come out and say it all, oh well. Sloan may not have said anything about running the offense through Boozer (if you have read the comments above let’s just not get started on our definition of this ;-) ) but for better or worse, they ran a lot of plays to get him the ball in scoring positions. When he got the ball he shot at a very high percentage. It is my opinion from watching Millsap, that he works better off of a more skilled post player (cutting, offensive dives for rebounds, and off of the fast break) Having said that, I do think that his game has improved considerably in the last few seasons so that while not the prettiest thing ever, he can score pretty consistently. It will be interesting to see how that changes this year being scouted and guarded by (and guarding) the other teams top 4. I believe that he will still be used as a compliment to Jefferson, and will play off of him. Your point about their high post skills is interesting. I hadn’t really thought of that. I assumed that the focus of the offense would just shift slightly from the elbow to the low post. I will look through the posts for your reasoning behind Boozer being overrated. I’m sure that will help me understand why you believe that.
The thing that kills me about this whole thing is that I really like Millsap and I really liked Boozer. I appreciate what they both do. They are different players. It seems like there is just a ton of Boozer hate (which is fine now – he is the enemy after all) that I feel is not justified. There just aren’t many players in the league that can do what he does. But I feel like that argument becomes circular, and he is gone so it doesn’t really matter. I’m sure that the Jazz ran some of the offense through Millsap when boozer was out, but I suspect , and remember, that they changed up the offense quite a bit. There is no way to prove that without watching the games again.
Finally, I agree that Jefferson and Millsap will be a formidable offensive Lineup. But again OKur/Boozer, and Boozer/Millsap were formidable against everyone but the Lakers. If Jefferson can improve his defense then I also believe that it could work defensively against teams that don’t have great length. I agree that the potential is there to be better than last year.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 22, 2010 1:13 AM MDT up reply actions
One last thought:
Judging a player’s “worth” by their market value is really unwise. I think deep down you know this. The truth of the matter is that 75% of GMs in the league don’t know $h*& about basketball or how to evaluate talent.
Look at Wesley Matthews and Raja Bell. If you really want to win, and win now, Bell is the better player. Shoots a better 3 point and fg percentage. Is wiser. Plays arguably better, or tougher defense. Bell will make less than half what Matthews makes.
Joe Johnson- fetched more money than almost any other free agent this offseason. More than Lebron, more than Wade. He was coveted. Johnson is a good player, don’t get me wrong, but he is vastly overpaid. As was Michael Redd once upon a time. I would rather have Kevin Martin than either of those players, if you are worried about offensive efficiency. Rudy Gay made max money. He’s about as effective as Corey Maggette in helping his team win.
Monta Ellis is literally one of the worst shooting guards in the league in terms of helping his team and being a good player. He makes almost $12 million a year right now.
Could it be, and I know you will think this is crazy, but that Boozer is being overpaid this season and Millsap is being underpaid and that both are probably worth 9 or 10 million dollars a year? If Millsap is an UFA this offseason, what kind of contract does he command? Scola signed for $10 million a year. David Lee signed for $14 million a year. Would you blink an eye if the Nets offered Millsap $10-12 million a year? I wouldn’t. Not this summer.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Here is what I believe
Judging a player’s "worth" solely by their market value is really unwise.
Look, I was not ever trying to say that Judging a player by market value is the best way. I specified that with my 3 points about how I judge Millsap as a player. I agree that at times players are overpaid by foolish owners, or over valued by desperate GM’s. I just think that, in general, players make about what they should on average. Almost every player that is payed Max money is, or was at one time during the contract, one of the best players at his position in the league. I think when GM’s make mistakes overpaying with max or close contracts it is usually on “potential” (Ellis, Gay come to mind). As far as wanting Martin over Johnson, I think Johnson’s defense and all around game are so superior ( I believe Martin is a very poor defender – though he is a great scorer I give you that) that I would have to disagree with your assessment. I don’t feel like I have a good feel for how you evaluate players yet though, so I am tentative to just disagree fully with any of your assessments.
Having said all that, I could see some team overpaying for Millsap at 10-12 Million. The difference with Boozer is that 10-12 Million would not be overpaying for him in my opinion. If Millsap shows this year that he can produce on that level throughout a whole season as the starter then I would totally agree with him being worth in that same range. I think that you value Millsap higher than I do, so I can understand why you would have your opinion there.
As far as Bell and Matthews… I’m not sure. I get your point, but Bell does have some injury and age concerns, and Utah was by far his best offer. Matthews got a big offer that was almost unanimously panned by GM’s and agents around the league for being exorbitant, so for me, he is an out-lier. I see them both as about the same player – Raja was, and probably is still, a better shooter, while Matthews still has some room to grow and could probably play more extended minutes.
I hope that addressed all your points. I am doing this backwards so I will look at your previousr post as well.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 22, 2010 12:38 AM MDT reply actions
Are you on twitter and if so, what is your usertag?
That goes for everybody: what is everyone’s usertags?
Mine is @jazzingitup
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
I am on twitter. I signed up a while ago, but just started being more active with it recently.
@dtcomposer – I think.. like I said I am still new.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 22, 2010 1:16 AM MDT reply actions
See my sig :D
(For those who don’t know, it’s my nickname (thanks, Chick Norris)
And how the hell did I get @Texas? Early adopter
Possibly the southernmost Jazz fan in the world!
Twitter: @Texas
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