The Utah Jazz Aren't Going Anywhere - The Downbeat - #624
Just a phenomenal story by Jody Genessy on the finances of the Utah Jazz and whether they could possibly be sold if there aren't changes made to the system. As I saw snippets this morning and started to come up with potential talking points, I read the entire article and found that Genessy had covered everything.
That's also the biggest reason why I don't believe the Jazz would be sold soon. While money will rule in the end, if the current changes are implemented, it appears that they would be sufficient for the Millers to retain ownership of the team. If the Millers were to sell, there could be a huge backlash from the community and fans. To eliminate that, they would certainly have to a clause that would prevent the new owners from moving the team. I don't think most fans would care about who owned the team so long as it would be kept in Utah.
There's one other reason why I don't believe that the Millers would sell the team. The Jazz are so intricately woven into the marketing aspect of all of the LHM Group of businesses that removing them would be detrimental to their brand as a whole. They cross-promote everything everywhere. While they could still maintain that relationship with new Jazz owners, they have exclusive control over the biggest marketing tool in the Utah market. Think of the hit that KFAN, KJZZ, Megaplex theaters, and dealerships would take if they didn't have the power of an NBA franchise behind them. Life and business would go on and those relationships could continue, but not in the autocratic way that it does now.
It's also worth noting that the biggest expense for the team, players' salaries, will now be taking a dip for the upcoming season. They will be over the salary cap but will not be luxury tax payers for the first time in two seasons. Under the assumption of a full season, the payroll next season would have only been about $60 million, down from the $75 million from last season. In the 2013 season, the team's payroll will be between $50 and $55 million. So not only will they have a lesser payroll, they will become luxury tax recipients instead of luxury tax payers. Not only will they be saving $15 million in salary, they won't have to pay the $5 million in tax and would receive roughly $4 million in payouts. That's a $24 million turnaround. With a better BRI split and better system, the Jazz should be in good shape going forward.
It's also worth noting that while players' salaries were at an all-time high for the Jazz, Forbes reported that revenue was also at an all-time high as well. The operating income for the Jazz was at its highest the past decade was in the 2003-05 seasons when salary was at its lowest. This was before the AK contract and deals for Memo and Boozer kicked in. The Jazz should return to that over the next few seasons as the team gets younger and cheaper.
A Greek sports media site is reporting that Enes Kanter is close on a deal with Olympiakos. This is the same team that had offered him a two-year deal a couple of years ago.
Thanks to @bilibaz and @CKeceli for the info.
You see, he's not a machine! In all seriousness, let's hope AK recovers fully from this nasty fall. EOB reported that he was concussed on the play.
(h/t to Chris Foote and Kurt Adison)
Ken Berger of CBS Sports has been optimistic throughout this whole lockout. So he's not about to let some little thing like the union's disclaimer of interest get him down,
Two people who have been briefed on the league's strategy told CBSSports.com the NBA is holding out hope a settlement can be reached in time for the season to begin no later than Christmas. One of those people said the process already is under way through what he described as "back-channeling," although sources from both sides professed no knowledge of such conversations.
A third person said that based on how vendor contracts and other financial arrangements were put in place, starting the season by Christmas would be optimal as far as preserving those relationships, and of course, revenues. Multiple people who have spoken with top NBA officials about the matter said it is understood that starting the season after Christmas is not viewed as a viable option.
There is still time of course but time has this funny thing of not stopping for anyone nor anything. It will pass with or without a deal.
There have been a couple of pro-owner pieces on the DesNews this past week including one yesterday where Derek Fisher resumes his spot as the official lightning rod of Utah and one aimed at players in general.
I'm perplexed at the reason why Utah and its residents are so pro-owner in all of this. They've painted the players as greedy and selfish yet place no blame on the owners nor point out the Escalades, large homes, and other lavish lifestyles that the rich owners have as well.
You know my stance on this. I favor the players after they've given up a huge chunk of BRI and have given back on system issues. I also think they've bungled negotiations and will deserve whatever they end up settling for.
However, these pieces aren't supposed to be subjective. That's fine. That's what they're written for. But when they mention that the players decertified (not technically correct) or talk about average player salaries being high without mentioning that this is because NBA teams have far fewer players than other professional leagues, then they lose me. And only the Fisher article lays blame a little on owners at the very end.
What they fail to mention is that players' salaries are directly tied to the success of the league. If income increases, so do player salaries. That's where the BRI comes into play. If income decreases, then the players have to pay that back to the owners. These articles make it sound like the players are striking because they're crying about not getting paid enough when it was in fact the owners that locked them out.
Perhaps this is why every poll that is taken in regards to favoring players and owners that Utah is consistently pro-owner. There are other factors I'm sure but I don't think Utah is getting both sides of the story.
So when the owners set artificial starting points -- remember 45% BRI and a hard cap? -- and then claimed to have conceded, it's a joke. The only true concessions have come from the players who have given up at least 7% of the BRI ($300 million roughly) and numerous system issues. While the owners have a legitimate need to change things from the old CBA, one they came up with and said was needed to survive, this has been a truly one-sided affair in terms of concessions.
When Derek Fisher gets lit up for wearing a $3000 suit and $500 tie, why is the wardrobe of David Stern, Dan Gilbert, and Paul Allen never brought up? Why are their millions and billions never mentioned or looked down upon as being greedy people?
The share of the money is what is being discussed here. This can't be compared to a normal owner/employee business because the employees are also the product. Most of us work for companies and we're paid for the work that we do. Rarely are we the product being sold. The players put in the work as well. However, for their unique skill set, they need the league and its owners.
If you don't like what you're getting paid, you're free to find another job. However, if your skill set is professional basketball, then things drop off after the NBA. That's a favorite thing to say to players, "If you don't like it, find a real job and see how you like it." What if you were told that by your employer? "You like getting paid $75,000 a year? Well, go find somewhere else that pays you $30,000."
If your boss comes to you under that pay scenario and asks you to make changes for the good of the business, would giving up $5,250 a year suffice? What if the owner wanted to make it so that you could only get a 2% raise of the next five years. Would you be greedy for saying no?
The economy is cited as well for the greed. It's as if the NBA hasn't remained relatively immune to the economic climate. In fact, they still have growth in revenues every year.
So why is it in Utah that it's only the players are to blame?
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5.
Hasn’t this issue been discussed to death?
We can whine and say “its not fair! the owners haven’t conceded anything!” all we want but the absolute bottom line is money. Who has more financial incentive to start the season? It is the players. Therefore, they are the ones who are required to make more concessions. That is basic market forces at work.
From my point of view, I blame both. Both sides are greedy pigs that need a dose of reality. the difference is that the owners have the leverage and are using it.
Sorry, but in business, things aren’t always “fair”. and the players need to get used to that.
[shameless self promotion] You are always welcome to visit my blog @ bigbenstechnicalfoul.blogspot.com, I always try to make it fun and enjoyable. I most often talk teams in Utah, but I also like to talk national stuff. [/shameless self promotion]
by BigBenSportsGuy on Nov 21, 2011 10:46 AM MST reply actions
The players were going to lose this from the beginning
My point is that there’s a heavy pro-owner feel here in Utah and that it’s the players that are greedy/selfish yet the owners are excluded from such name calling.
by Basketball John on Nov 21, 2011 10:52 AM MST up reply actions
got ya.
makes sense. and I agree. Owners need to be held more accountable.
[shameless self promotion] You are always welcome to visit my blog @ bigbenstechnicalfoul.blogspot.com, I always try to make it fun and enjoyable. I most often talk teams in Utah, but I also like to talk national stuff. [/shameless self promotion]
by BigBenSportsGuy on Nov 21, 2011 11:05 AM MST up reply actions
I am unaware of the specific market
nationally in which the prevailing sentiment is pro player.
they are led by
Jason Whitlock.
[shameless self promotion] You are always welcome to visit my blog @ bigbenstechnicalfoul.blogspot.com, I always try to make it fun and enjoyable. I most often talk teams in Utah, but I also like to talk national stuff. [/shameless self promotion]
by BigBenSportsGuy on Nov 22, 2011 7:09 AM MST up reply actions
I think the reason
that there’s a pro-owner feel here is because, well, we’re a small market. I believe that when it all comes down to it, this lockout isn’t about players vs owners, it’s small market owners vs large market owners and the players are just caught in the middle of it. Small market owners want to be able to spend like the big boys, but can’t so they’re trying to restrict what the big market owners can do, not what the players can do. But I don’t think it’s necessarily about money, but about competition. In my opinion, they’re trying to stop the Miami’s of the world from spending big to draw multiple big stars in free agency and not necessarily stop the LeBron’s of the world from leaving. He can go wherever he chooses, but when he, Bosh, and Wade all decided to team up in a big market, it causes problems. Would this lockout have happened had LeBron signed with the Bucks? The small market owners don’t stand a chance in free agency. When’s the last time the Jazz landed a big-time free agent? Okur wasn’t a big time free agent. Boozer was ok at the time and that was it. Other than that? So the small market teams have to build through the draft and trades, but the likes of LeBron and Carmelo screw their teams plans and hard work over. Loyalty has become a thing of the past. We’re never going to see a Stockton and Malone stick together for nearly 2 decades ever again. San Antonio got lucky with Duncan. What would happen if Durant decided to go to the Clippers to team up with Griffin? So, I wouldn’t say we’re on the owners side, but we’re on the small market owners side for the sake of fair competition.
"If you're racist I will attack you with the north." -Abraham Lincoln
by footeperu on Nov 21, 2011 3:50 PM MST up reply actions 3 recs
agreed
great breakdown.
[shameless self promotion] You are always welcome to visit my blog @ bigbenstechnicalfoul.blogspot.com, I always try to make it fun and enjoyable. I most often talk teams in Utah, but I also like to talk national stuff. [/shameless self promotion]
by BigBenSportsGuy on Nov 22, 2011 7:09 AM MST up reply actions
90% of these guys are not that good
In spite of hating both sides by now, I’m still pro owner because of the fact that all but some 20 players in the NBA are not substantially better than most players around the world.
Even with a 50% split, the players would still make more money playing basketball than they could make anywhere else on Earth. And even when they are paid something similar somewhere else, they don’t destroy the competition as they were supposed to. Look at Allen Iverson, DeJuan Blair, J.J. Hickson, Josh Childress.
They make more than they deserve and haven’t realized it quite yet. It seems they need to embarrass themselves underperforming overseas and losing a season to realize that.
pro owner
Personally, I slightly favor the owners. They claim to have “conceded” their stances on the BRI, (which is not a concession), but the players “conceding” something that (1. wasnt negotiated upon yet, 2. wasn’t yet earned, and 3. an obscene amount for a childs game) isn’t, at least in my mind, a concession either.
Negotiations go back and forth, and yes the players sell the business, but without the commitment from the owners, there would be nothing to sell, and most of the players would be making 50k over seas, if not making mix tapes for and-1 or …GASP… working a real job like the rest of us out here barely making ends meet.
The players have invested nothing, are not losing any equity or personal assets by their “concessions”, and many have the ability (at least under the last CBA) to walk almost anywhere they want while still earning a salary bump.
The players have been handed everything to them on a silver spoon, from college tuition, to million dollar salaries. Not to say the owners havent had many a thing given to them,
(especially the trust-fund/marry-into-money parties), but at least they are putting their assets on the line for both themselves and the game.
In PR terms, the owners are making the crowds believe that they are fighting to stay profitable – selling the idea that they need to make money to keep their investment in the league.
The players perspective is – lose as little money as possible, while still being able to run the league in the trenches.
At least thats how it comes off to me.
meanwhile ill be sundering around in my 25000 dollar a year job, (which by the way it would take me almost 200 years to earn what the average unfortunate locked out player would make in 1 year) waiting for the simple escape of basketball to resume.
My reason for siding with the owners:
Disclaimer: Uneducated, immature opinions coming
Yes, I know that the NBA players are the product. I’ve heard the argument before.
However, the owners are still the owners. They ultimately have put the money into the team, and front the financial risk. I’ve read several times “Well, they’re billionaires, so it doesn’t matter to them!” Yes, they might be billionaires, but it’s still THEIR money, and THEIR team.
I know it’s a pretty stupid argument, but if the players feel like they’re worth more, then they can start their own league and decide their own payrolls.
My main problem with the whole fiasco is the union itself. We don’t need unions anymore, at least not for NBA players. Unions were made to stop horrible treatment of workers early in the century, not to protect rich people from more rich people.
"Everyone wants to throw dirty on us"
Do you really thing the owners would let the players form their own league? I don’t believe the players could or would anyway. But would the owners let their assets become 0? Would anyone continue to watch the NBA if all of the big players were gone?
As far as unions go and collective bargaining, maybe dissolving the union is the way to go. Some of the top players in the league aren’t making what they’re worth to a franchise. What would LeBron James, Wade, and others earn on the open market Part of the reason for the union is to protect all players. The 10th and 11th men on benches wouldn’t earn nearly as much as they would as part of a union.
The union is also there to protect against collusion and other things that the owners could use to increase the divide.
by Basketball John on Nov 21, 2011 11:07 AM MST up reply actions
The open market is a myth
I know Ziller tried to make this argument too. But Lebron only has worth vis-a-vis other basketball players. No one forces him to play in the NBA. If the MAX contract is lower than what he is willing to play for, then he shouldn’t play. If another league can pay him more, then he should leave. There are many many professional basketball leagues around the world. Of course there is no league in the world that can or will pay him more, if there were, he would have jumped ship already. His “value” is inextricably linked to the NBA. Here’s the flip side of your coin, without the NBA, Lebron wouldn’t have any endorsement value. Perhaps he should kick back a percentage of his endorsement money to the NBA?
by tyrantking on Nov 21, 2011 12:40 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
on last week's thread
we had 2, yes 2 users who were willing to take a pro-players stand on this issue. A summary of their arguments:
1) Dyl: The owners are the bad guys because they are and they should start a season because it would be dumb not to. The owners should concede because the players have.
2)Prodigal_Punk: Not sure what his argument was, but he seemed kind of cranky, like he had just been rudely awakened from a deep sleep.
[shameless self promotion] You are always welcome to visit my blog @ bigbenstechnicalfoul.blogspot.com, I always try to make it fun and enjoyable. I most often talk teams in Utah, but I also like to talk national stuff. [/shameless self promotion]
by BigBenSportsGuy on Nov 21, 2011 11:07 AM MST reply actions
i should say
that i am not trying to start a fight, i just really appreciate it when the pro-players crowd has an argument like BBJ did here. it was well thought out.
[shameless self promotion] You are always welcome to visit my blog @ bigbenstechnicalfoul.blogspot.com, I always try to make it fun and enjoyable. I most often talk teams in Utah, but I also like to talk national stuff. [/shameless self promotion]
by BigBenSportsGuy on Nov 21, 2011 11:25 AM MST up reply actions
I'm sitting in class now, but I'll address this.
But, first way to take a passive-aggressive jab at me the first chance you get
by prodigal punk on Nov 21, 2011 1:18 PM MST up reply actions
I eagerly await your address
[shameless self promotion] You are always welcome to visit my blog @ bigbenstechnicalfoul.blogspot.com, I always try to make it fun and enjoyable. I most often talk teams in Utah, but I also like to talk national stuff. [/shameless self promotion]
by BigBenSportsGuy on Nov 21, 2011 2:12 PM MST up reply actions
Here goes:
First of all I agree with every bit of what BBJ said.
Second, The argument that the players didn’t give because when the old CBA expired everything reset, is a non-point. Just as the owners offered 45%, the players were coming from a starting point of 57%. I guarantee that the NBA offered 45% and the players countered with 57%. That means that over the course of this entire negotiation, the players have moved 7% off their original stance, and the owners have moved 3%-5% (depending on which initial percentage you go by) and now we’re finding that fully 1/3 of them are not happy with that.
Next, to say that the players are going to lose, so they should just take what they can get makes no sense. Who on this earth is going to take a look at an offer that bad for their own financial situation and say, “Oh well, we are going to lose. Lets just sign.”? No one. Especially not a group of people that are known for their competitiveness.
Yes they make the most money of any sport, but many of them pay a hefty price for their time spent on the court. Ever watch Dr. J or Bill Russell hobble around? They have taken this into account and set themselves up a fund that will help support them when they retire. I’m sure the pro-owner people are also have a deep disdain for the Social Security system and these players have a system that will sustain them apart from SS, but the owners put a clause into their final offer that allowed them to take the 1% the union puts into the retirement fund, should they fail to operate their business for a profit. That is nothing short of thievery. The players have no input as to how the owners run their business, so why should they be held accountable for the owners’ liabilities? There are any number of ways that the owners and their surrogates can be inefficiently operating that directly play into the complaint that they are hemorrhaging money. I’m aware that some of it goes to the lavish hotels and chartered flights for the team, but there is a reason they all started doing it in the first place: short travel times and well rested players leads to wins. Obviously someone decided those expenses worth it to owners or they wouldn’t all do it.
You can complain all you want about people being overpaid for playing a game, but you can blame that on “the market”. There is a demand. The players have a very specific skill set that supplies that demand. If you don’t like the money they make, stop putting your time and money into it. Its basic economics. The NBA provides a platform for this specific product, and we all consume it- to the tune of $4 billion a year. They put in countless hours of time training, practicing, and playing and I guarantee that all of this time adds up to more than anyone on this board spends on their 9-5 job throughout the entire year, that also plays into their salary.
There is the assertion that because the owners assume all the risk, they should get all the rewards. I agree that the risk that they take earns them the right to make the money. That being said, if the owner of any other business can’t operate his business to a profit, what would you say to him? He should just go and take away 7% of all his employee’s salary, then make them agree to give back an additional 10% if that doesn’t cover it? No, he should do what got him into the position to buy a team in the first place and make the changes necessary to get his business in the black. Does that include a new CBA? Yes. I’m not arguing that the players didn’t need to give back. I agree they did, however, they should not have to let the owners take the easy way out and give it all back to them. They gave back enough to cover the alleged losses the NBA teams incurred, the rest should be on the owners. You hear stories of these new owners that bought into their teams at vastly inflated prices in the last 5-7 years, and now are demanding profits, so the players should be the ones to give it? If you want to call this a business, why do normal rules of business not apply? If you mismanage your business, you don’t make money. In the NBA, good management means winning, so if these owners want profit, they need to do their jobs better and create winners.
As for the “competitive balance” issues. Everything that any of us say is pure speculation. People can make all the emphatic statements they want about how this change or that change will make small market teams more competitive, but the reality is they have no idea. Remember, the owners were the ones that so desperately had to have the model they operated under during the last CBA. Now, they are completely reversing course? The only thing that will make teams competitive is smart management. The Jazz have been pretty good about that in the last 5 years. In my mind, the only thing the proposed changes are going to do is make it so that the small market teams can keep the players they draft a little longer. Capping the amount the Jazz can pay a player is not going to help them lure FA’s to Salt Lake. Everything being equal, the top players are going to migrate to the bigger markets, leaving the rest of the teams with the hopes of drafting the next superstar or fielding a group of middling players. Unfortunately, the KD’s and Duncan’s that show loyalty to a team and teammates are very rare.
The vast majority of the player movement issues agreed to in the last offer, I agree with. I think the MLE was too high and too long, it rarely panned out for teams. Not allowing Luxury tax teams to sign and trade, is fine… it only happened once during the last CBA.
The bottom line is that with all the bungling and buffoonery on the part of the players, this could all be over if the owners were willing to negotiate fairly and honestly. But the owners won’t open up their books and share the details of their profit sharing plan to show people the true state of things, because then we would all see just how bad it really isn’t.
by prodigal punk on Nov 21, 2011 9:35 PM MST up reply actions
great stuff
but it does absolutely nothing to disprove my main point………who has more incentive, from a financial standpoint, to have a season? The players. The owners know this, and they are prepared to wait the players out. The owners have little incentive to get a deal done for the sake of it. Being “fair” doesn’t mean that each side gives up an equal amount to reach a deal.
As soon as someone can address my point, i am more than happy to read what they have to say.
[shameless self promotion] You are always welcome to visit my blog @ bigbenstechnicalfoul.blogspot.com, I always try to make it fun and enjoyable. I most often talk teams in Utah, but I also like to talk national stuff. [/shameless self promotion]
by BigBenSportsGuy on Nov 22, 2011 7:15 AM MST up reply actions
Only because the owners are shortsighted
Besides Christmas being the day that their sponsors and tv partners start demanding their money back (I read that SAB Miller already has), they can’t seem to see that losing a season will do such damage to the momentum the NBA has built, that it will take another decade to recover. If the NBA is hurt as much as the NHL was, the owners will lose money than they ever would have under the old CBA.
The climate is right for this type of backlash to occur, hell, it has already started to a small extent.
I’m in marketing, so from my standpoint, you don’t invest this much into building a global brand then go out of your way to destroy it, or even set it back. The numbers show that growth in the NBA has withstood the economic crisis, so it should thrive when the economy pulls out of it.
by prodigal punk on Nov 22, 2011 10:27 AM MST up reply actions
i think you are overstating the
long term effects. sure, it would be bad in the short term, but most owners can see that the system is broken and needs to be fixed long term. and again, since they have the leverage over the players, they can easily wait them out.
[shameless self promotion] You are always welcome to visit my blog @ bigbenstechnicalfoul.blogspot.com, I always try to make it fun and enjoyable. I most often talk teams in Utah, but I also like to talk national stuff. [/shameless self promotion]
by BigBenSportsGuy on Nov 23, 2011 8:29 AM MST up reply actions
I have been on the players side up until the point they didn't vote on and take the last offer.
1- The owners knew they were taking on risk when they bought the team. The recession of a lifetime is not the players fault, but they are blamed for all the losses and have now given enough money back to cover the losses. ( this seems way to much like a bank bailout to me. Richest guys around get help to cover their risks of loss.) Its also not the players fault that teams risked money on stupid contracts and hoped to still make money.
2- Competitive balance AND small market problems are more of a profit sharing issue, not the system issues they blame them on. If the Nicks and Lakers of the world shared their profits with the small market teams more we’d have a more consistently competitive league, and the small teams wouldn’t have lost money. ( and the lockout wouldn’t be so ugly right now..) Once again, the richest guys around are getting their way.
The league does a great PR job and makes the players look bad. Players are inept in the PR battle and get killed. They give huge concessions and still get the blame….
I think the players have kind of been screwed in all of this. The bottom line is that you still have a pretty dang good job offer in front of you. Guaranteed contracts for millions playing the game you love? Chance to be a star and be worshipped by millions? Big money for the stars is all in the marketing. ( Why does Lebron need more than 90 mil from nike anyway? )Yeah, I think I’d take that deal in a second. If we don’t end up with a season, guys like me will end up being bitter and just hating the players like everybody else. ( just about there already…..)
employee
As an employee for a company, which has an owner, I can’t side with the players whatsoever. I could only wish that I could get a guaranteed contract at my job, regardless of my job performance or health status.
The players are employees, and the whole “players are the product” garbage is just that, garbage. Every company is the employee, not just the NBA. The players aren’t in touch with reality as an employee. Wake up and join the rest of the world’s working class. They don’t deserve any of the things they are asking for any more than I do at my job, and I’m not crying about it. I take what they offer me, and if it’s a bad company, offering me a raw deal, I look for somewhere else to work. That’s life for most people. No sympathy from me for the players.
by vexic on Nov 21, 2011 11:21 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
I am pro-owner for a lot of the same reasons Vexic mentions above-
The owners take most of the risk in most situations by buying a $300MM+ investment. That investment alone is many times what the average NBA player will make in his entire career. Men that have that much money typically didn’t get where they are through handouts. They made a series of critical, apt, and risky decisions that, often-times, others are not willing to make because the downside is too dangerous (many go bankrupt in the process, and the average person would never be willing to take that risk). Long, sleepless, lonely nights are often associated with clawing your way to the top of the business world because if it were easy, someone else would have already done it.
I’m not saying that the players don’t have to put hours of hard work in to get where they are, but they sign up for the system that the owners control, because, like many of us who do not have the gumption or foresight to start a multi-million or billion dollar business, they want the assurity of a paycheck. That means they work for someone and they are an employee.
I don’t by the fact that the owners need to manage their organizations better in every case. I have worked with the Utah Jazz, and the Millers are fair, but also seem to understand limitations and the cost/profit relationship, in my best estimation. If the Jazz can have the attendance they had last year, with the type of financial scrutiny they also employ, and still lose $17MM, something is wrong and the system needs to be tweaked. Also, not every franchise (in fact, the Millers are highly in the minority here) are willing to just breakeven or take a slight loss every year as a gift to the community. Profits are expected, and rightfully so. This is not a bad thing; the owners aren’t greedy for wanting it. Jut as you or I have the right to lower or freeze wages based on our own businesses performance, so do the owners. Most of them want to stay wealthy afterall, and are not in it for the good of the community.
If the Jazz are losing that much with the success and following they have in their market, then there are many, many teams suffering, based on what I know about the Millers and how they manage the fiscal duties of that team.
Well Said!
A Business can’t continue to exist if it doesn’t make a profit. This is true even in the NBA. The fact that the Millers have been willing/able to take a loss makes them the exception and not the rule. I’m sure they had many opportunities to get under the cap by dumping salary but didn’t in the name of competitiveness. The fact that they own many other businesses that are profitable allows for this.
by socaljazzfan on Nov 21, 2011 11:08 PM MST up reply actions
There is not right side to be on. They are both at fault, but the owners will win so players should just bite the bullet and play.
The owners had all the leverage and they may have over played their hand. The players have poor leadership (why not disclaim interest before any games were missed?) and Kessler and the agents had their own interest in mind more than the players’ interest. I think most people come to a pro ownership stance more by the pure stupidity of the players union leaders not taking that deal than the fact that we think the owners are correct.
The owners have played hard ball, but from their perspective they were losing money and control of the league and needed to be able to rein things in. But, the owners need to put better people in the front offices making decisions. Really why is Kahn still a GM, while at the same time Portland fires good GMs? It makes no sense. Owners did give out poor contracts and have made poor decisions all along the way. So they made some bad moves, they didn’t concede anything to the players, and they over played their hand causing the players to go nuclear. So they aren’t angels in this by any means.
But the bottom line is the players were still going to get more than they will anywhere else and it was still the best deal that the owners will give them. So fair or not the players by not taking the deal are losing money that will never be recouped and will in my opinion when all is said and done get a worse deal anyway. The average NBA career is like 5 years. They are throwing away 20% of their career just to get a deal that won’t make them enough money to make the difference that they are losing this year by not playing.
I lean to it being more on the owners side only because the players had as good of a deal as they will get on the table and they threw it in the garbage assuring us that the season is over so that just stings more. I am not fully on the owners side though, because they have screwed up a lot. I have said before I am the kid that’s parents are in a messy divorce and don’t want to take a side as much as I want mom and dad to be back together again.
by BobbyD31 on Nov 21, 2011 5:06 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
Off topic question, I'll just ask it here
Why did Morris Almond do so poorly when he came to the pros? Looked great in D league and College, stunk it up in the NBA…
by Stockton2Malone on Nov 21, 2011 5:16 PM MST reply actions
Quick Answer: His inability to adapt his game to the pros.
Not as quick answer: Almond is a gifted and premiere scorer…at the college and D-league level. He wasn’t good enough to do that in the NBA. He has to have the ball in his hands to be effective, when the Jazz offense asks wings to mostly score off set shots and sharp cuts. He couldn’t adapt to the Jazz’s or other teams offensive needs.
Also, he never played good enough defense to warrant more playing time.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Any worries that Burks might similarly bust?
by Stockton2Malone on Nov 22, 2011 8:20 AM MST up reply actions
the concern will always be there.
but in my “I haven’t studied this at all but it seems to me that this is true” mind, players like Burks, who are more than shooters, have a better chance of sticking in the NBA. If you look at pure shooters, they are great at coming off the ball to score. Almond seemed to need the ball. And guys like that need to be out of this world to be successful (i.e. T-Mac, Dwade, etc.)
[shameless self promotion] You are always welcome to visit my blog @ bigbenstechnicalfoul.blogspot.com, I always try to make it fun and enjoyable. I most often talk teams in Utah, but I also like to talk national stuff. [/shameless self promotion]
by BigBenSportsGuy on Nov 22, 2011 8:39 AM MST up reply actions
I agree
Further, Burks has far more athletic ability than Almond. If I recall correctly, athleticism was one of Mo’s biggest drawbacks.
by prodigal punk on Nov 22, 2011 10:29 AM MST up reply actions
Burks passed in college
That alone gives us greater hope.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I'm dissappointed with both the players and the owners
At the beginning of all this, I was decidedly pro-owner, in no small part because I am a die-hard fan of a small market team. The current business model is successful for only a small number of teams and is not viable long-term. Changes must be made, and unfortunately for the players, it means significant concessions on their part. Though I can certainly understand their reluctance to do so, they need to see the bigger picture. Not to do so is, at the very least, highly misguided; they have a vested interest in the continuing success of the league.
I must say, however, that I find the negotiating tactics—if they can be called “negotiating”—employed by the owners and David Stern to be utterly despicable. They have been iron-fisted, underhanded and stubborn, to put it kindly. I cannot blame the players one iota for being defiant and disgusted by the whole process.
Last week, Chad Ford tweeted something that I loved:
Wish NBA owners & players would sit down and watch this TED talk together. This is the problem & the solution …
[The NBA] and [NBAPA] are perfect for each other. [They each] give the other reason never to have to change.
(the link he’s talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyhOT3jCcR4)
Its a great lecture and I couldn’t agree with Chad Ford more. It seems to me that if relations between those sitting at the negotiation table were remotely civilized and both sides were willing to see things from the others’ perspective, a mutually beneficial deal could be agreed upon. As it stands, it seems that each side relishes the conflict and sees the opposition not as people, but as something in the way of getting what they want.
Pro-owner
The reason Utah is pro-owner is the same reason LHM should never sell the Jazz. Utah likes LHM (the company). They’re generally perceived as good people, keeping the Jazz around as a token of their generosity. So people buy LHM cars and go to their theaters because there’s familiarity.
All things being equal, would I choose Cinemark or an LHM theater? LHM.
Agreed!
The reason Utah is so pro owner is that we are a small market with a great owner who provides us with a team and has done everything possible to give us a competitive team. Plus we’ve been a little turned off by the likes of Boozer and his “I’m gonna get a raise no matter what” comments. D-Will’s exit and whatever roll he played, if any, in Sloan’s retirement didn’t help either.
by socaljazzfan on Nov 21, 2011 11:20 PM MST up reply actions
Going back to #1
Can you imagine if the Millers sold the Jazz and something underhanded happened like with Seattle? The thing is, the LHM businesses are inextricably tied to the community and to the Jazz. It’s not like with Schultz and Starbucks where you can piss your Seattle customers off because you have a worldwide corporation. If the Millers screwed the fanbase over, there are people who would never patronize the Millers again. It would run counter to everything they have professed to stand for.
When you are trained to instinctually think that authority = truth, no matter what (Government, Jesus, etc.)...
…rather than truth as authority, it’s easy for the general conservative religious type (quite abundant in the Jazz fan population) to automatically side with large business interests when asked about it in any light (Occupy Wall St. Protests, NBA Players, etc.). Sorry to sound like I am generalizing, but really it’s the true answer to your question. Psychologically speaking, a skewed view of reality is what helps the state of Utah jump to conclusion so quickly, in this case the poll on the lockout.

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