Building a contender: Bigman rotation in the paint
by AllThatJazzBasketball on Nov 5, 2011 5:16 PM MDT
in Utah Jazz - Rosters & Rotations
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PrintIn the NBA it’s possible to win a lot of games, even go far in the playoffs, with super-star perimeter strength. However, when push comes to shove the games are won (and lost) in the paint. If you look at the past decade of NBA champions the team holding the trophy at the end of the season has always, at the very least, held it down on defense in the paint. A number of them have also included a legit scoring threat, one who elicits double teams. Here’s a quick rundown of those teams, and their most important bigs (as seen primarily by talent and cumulative playoff minutes for their championship season):
- 2001-2002—Los Angeles Lakers (Shaquille O’Neal, Samaki Walker, Robert Horry)
- 2002-2003 – San Antonio Spurs (Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Malik Rose)
- 2003-2004 – Detroit Pistons (Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Corliss Williamson)
- 2004-2005 – San Antonio Spurs (Tim Duncan, Robert Horry, Nazr Mohammed)
- 2005-2006 – Miami Heat (Shaquille O’Neal, Alonzo Mourning, Udonis Haslem)
- 2006-2007 – San Antonio Spurs (Tim Duncan, Fabricio Oberto, Robert Horry)
- 2007-2008 – Boston Celtics (Kevin Garnett, Kendrick Perkins, P.J. Brown)
- 2008-2009 – Los Angeles Lakers (Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, Lamar Odom)
- 2009-2010 – Los Angeles Lakers (Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, Lamar Odom)
- 2010-2011 – Dallas Mavericks (Dirk Nowitzki, Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion)
These are the three most important guys from just the center and power forward spots – which comprises just 2/5th of an entire on-court team. Furthermore, some of these teams went to a deeper rotation inside than just three guys. The Celtics, for example, were able to get some real good playoff minutes from Glen Davis. Additionally, the Pistons won a title with 2nd year player Mehmet Okur playing 11.5 mpg. And he played in 22 of a total 23 games in the playoffs. The first three guys in the paint are important. But, these teams don’t win titles just because they have a guy like Zo or P.J. Brown coming off the bench – they win titles because they have guys like Kobe Bryant, Paul Pierce, Jason Terry, Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, and Dwyane Wade on their rosters. That said, you can’t ignore the paint. Especially not if you are trying to become a contender.
The Jazz are such a team (after all, we only have up to go, we can’t get much farther down). Utah also has a bevy of options for the paint moving forward. I’m not going to make this a huge long post; and there’s obviously some uncertainty here: we don’t know what’s going to happen with free agency, trades, injures, and future drafts. But try this poll out, and in the comments below give some reason for what you picked. Our current strength is inside, and if we don’t maximize this strength we’re only doing our team a disservice.
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The poll is for three years from now, not three seasons . . .
. . . because . . . you know . . . lock out.
About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11
by AllThatJazzBasketball on Nov 5, 2011 5:18 PM MDT reply actions
I know the emphasis was supposed to be on defensive skills in the paint,
however, you can’t deny the fact that all of those championship teams had a reliable bigman who can score. Most of them were capable of doing damage in the paint.
I see favors more as a defensive guy than an offensive guy. I think he can score, but he doesn’t shout “go to guy” right now. Maybe he will be in the future, but I think that having a bigman who can be one down the stretch of games makes the defense focus on him — and leaves other guys open.
Kanter seems like a legit guy to be an opportunistic scorer in the league. Remember when we were playing the Spurs in ‘07 and we had so much trouble with Duncan that we left Oberto open and he made us pay? I think Kanter can be one of those “make you pay” offensive players. He’s not going to hurt you one on one, but he’s good enough to Greg Foster you with open looks under the basket and from 10-15 feet out. Again, not a go to guy.
Millsap plays with so much heart that he can’t be a go to guy for a full season and playoffs. We’ve seen his body break down time again, even though he’s been clutch for us. (He won us two games on the road last year: miami and houston — nearly by himself) But I think that you can’t go deep with a 6’8 go to guy in the paint in this era. By this measurement I think Al Jefferson has him clearly beat. And Big Al has everyone else on this list clearly beat. (Andrei, Memo, and Tomic aren’t go to guys either)
Until someone else shows up, or a guy like Kanter or Favors can develop into one — we’re going to need Big Al more than he needs us. Hope he stays “too country” to make this a problem down the line.
I do wish he learned how to defend the pick and roll better . . .
About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11
by AllThatJazzBasketball on Nov 5, 2011 5:48 PM MDT reply actions
I happen to think Favors has more potential as a go-to guy than you do
I think a realistic ceiling is along the lines of ’Zo or Dwight Howard. A dream ceiling is Garnett (their rookie stats are in some ways fairly similar).
I also think Kanter’s got tons more to give than Oberto or Greg Foster.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
i hope all that you posted comes true.
About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11
by AllThatJazzBasketball on Nov 5, 2011 6:05 PM MDT up reply actions
trade question?
What if we traded a combination of Jefferson and Bell for Iguodala and a few pieces? Hayward and Burkes could develop under him, and Hayward could take the 3 spot, rotating to the 2 when necessary, this clears up the logjam, and creates a great rotation
I don't think either side would go for it.
Philly would be giving up one of the league’s best defensive player for a mediocre-to-bad defensive player. That would also give Philly two overpaid bigs, already having Elton Brand making 17m and 18m over the next two years.
I don’t see the Jazz doing it because it would give them another big contract to pay out until the end of the 2013-14 season. Just seems like a tough trade to pull off for either side, in my opinion of course.
However, I’d still love to have Iggy one way or another. He can shoot, is super athletic, and one of the best lock down defenders in the league. We’ll need one of those I think if we intend to beat the superstars of the league.
I love the idea. I would completely trade Jefferson and a pick for Iguodala. Makes us really good defensively.
But as Hestari points out, Philadelphia might not want Al Jefferson. But Iguodala is getting traded this season.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
I voted Favors, Kanter, and Millsap
-Jazz are in a youth movement so Big Al has to go.
- 6 out of the last 7 years the NBA champs have had a guy 6’10 or taller playing both the 4 and 5. This proves that Millsap shouldn’t start, but I think he could be the best 6th man in the NBA so I keep him.
-Favors and Kanter start. In my opinion Favors skills are 60% defense-40% offense(Hope that makes sense). I believe Kanters skills are exact opposite favoring the offense. The two balance each other perfectly (what a perfect world).
-I believe both have the potential to develop ‘go-to-guy’ moves, but I believe Kanter might have the edge throughout his career just by the way I’ve seen him play in the post (Euroleague and Nike Hoops Summit is the extent of what I’ve seen).
Dump Al in the name of youth movement?
He is one month and a day older than Sap. . .
Give Millsap one more season of starting, and his knees will start showing the same wear and tear as Jefferson's knees.
As much as I love Millsap, at the end of the day he is still an undersized PF, who can’t match up effectively against normal size power forwards for long periods of time, in most cases. Putting a lot of minutes on Millsap at the PF position is like putting a lot of hard-driving, high speed miles on a 4-cylinder engine—it will run really well for awhile, but will wear out much faster than a larger engine. Against the second units of the NBA Millsap’s size is much less of a problem, because second unit PFs on other teams are often undersized, or Millsap is usually more skilled, even if he out-sized. However, Jefferson has even more of an advantage against second unit PFs, because he has size as well as skill.
Al is also more versatile in that he is able to play both PF and C (whereas we have yet to see if Millsap is versatile enough to play SF as well as PF). The only way I want Millsap in the big-man rotation long-term is if the Jazz have a 4-man rotation, with Millsap as the 4th man. However, most teams don’t have an effective 4-man big-man rotation, because of cost of salaries.
by Fesenko for President on Nov 6, 2011 5:05 PM MST up reply actions
I think Al would be a disaster at PF
Have you seen him “run”?
At least Paul can give us some high speed miles for a couple years. Al’s like a mid-60’s Hippie van struggling to go up the canyon.
This shows up mostly in his defense. His D against centers last year was bad. His D against PF’s was … well, let’s say the average PF played better than the league’s MVP when matched up against Al. (seriously, when Al was at the 4, his opposing player had a PER of 24.4—exactly three players had a PER that high last year).
Actually, despite my misgivings about Paul at SF, I think he’d do better than Al at PF. Al just can’t run. It’s probably got a lot to do with his injury three years ago, but still. The dude has no speed and no quickness.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
at least big al can lose some weight
i am excited to hear he has been working out because that is at least problem that can be fixed, which is different than milsaps set of difficulties, which requires a politically correct description which i don’t have the energy for right now.
His knees have been damaged before, but he DID play all 82 games last year!
82 games of about 20 – 10 doesn’t suck.
I don’t think he’s ideal, but he’s hardly a broken down big man. In fact, if it was even a problem at all, he would have missed at least some games. I don’t think it will be a factor for the rest of his contract. In 5 years or more? who knows.
I am curious to see how his training this summer pays off. ( IF we can start the dang season already. )
This
We have two guys, Paul and Al, who contributed pretty much the same last year (20.2 PER for Al, 19.8 PER for Sap). Neither one is good enough to be the best guy on a great team. Their defensive problems are roughly the same.
Paul’s ‘11-12 salary is $6.7 million. Al’s is $14 million.
Sorry, but Paul makes more sense on a team going for youth (since there will have to be some vets on even a youth-centered team).
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I guess I didn't go with the popular vote
I did Al, Paul, and Favors. My second choice would be Al, Favors and Kanter (chose the first since I know nothing about Kanter and he could be a bust)
I chose it for Amar’s second comment. I think Al is needed for scoring purposes. I think we need to give him more than a “roller coaster” season before we throw him out for “youth movement”
Al, Favors and Kanter
Each of the champ teams mentioned had one guy you could throw it to in the post and let him go to work (Shaq, Duncan, Sheed, Gasol, etc.) and one defensive anchor (Chandler, Zo, Duncan, etc.). When it comes to Al v. Millsap, one fills a roll while the other doesn’t fit either. By the end of the season, I felt fine dumping it to Al in the post. He even got 3.6 assts in April and improved in May as well. Millsap doesn’t fit either of those roles. Not good enough, in my opinion, to dump it down to him and let him go to work. Not a defensive stopper. The only way Paul would make it as a starter on a champ team is if he had Duncan/KG type that can be the anchor on both sides (see Duncan and Oberto or Shaq and Walker). I love Millsap. He’s one of my favorite players. But unless he comes off the bench at PF or we get the next KG/Duncan, he is not the answer. Al can be on offense, which is half the puzzle. No, he isn’t the answer on D. Favors could be though. Al as the offensive anchor and Favors anchoring the D—that DOES compare to the above teams.
You do realize that Millsap shot better in the low post than Al, right?
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Not quite, Yucca
A quick look as FG% breakdown
Al Jefferson shot 66% at rim, which was about his average for the last 5 years. Millsap shot 69%, which is great. However, over the last 5 years, Paul never shot above 65% at rim—Right about the same as Al.
Jefferson shot 43% from 3-9 feet, but his 5 year avg is 47%. Also the last 3 months of the season he shot 47% from 3-9 feet as he spent more time with the Jazz. Millsap shot 38% for the season, about his average for the last 5 years.
Jefferson made 5.5 shots a game in what I’d call post position (at rim to 9 feet out). Millsap made 4.0. Again, who was more of the focus offensively in the post?
Also, the simple eyeball test. How many times did you see the Jazz post up Millsap? Al was a staple of our offense working the low block. I was as frustrated as the next guy with Al’s push shot, but he got much better as the season went on (proof in FG% and assist numbers).
The only metric where Millsap was better was at the rim by a small margin. Even then, historically, they are about the same—with Jefferson decidedly acting as a bigger cog in the offense from the post position, thus better prepared to fill that role of the scoring bigman on a championship team.
stats from 82games.com
Millsap’s eFG% inside: .683, 35% of his shots qualifying
Al’s eFG% inside: .629, 37% of his shots qualifying.
Considering Al and Millsap took pretty much equal number of shots—I don’t know how anyone can possibly say Al’s more effective inside.
In this case, your eyeball test is inaccurate.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Sorry, Al did average about 2.5 more shots per 36 minutes
So Al was more of a focal point.
Though I’d never argue otherwise. Whether Al SHOULD have been more of a focal point than Sap, is a totally different question.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
who can really predict three years from now?
if jazz want to get better quicker then ak47 should return, he is the best veteran and smartest player; and he isn’t going to throw a fit if he doesn’t start or you use him as a 4th man,.
Favors, Kanter, Millsap
This hinges on Pauls willingness to come off of the bench. It sounded like this is something that he really doesn’t want to do, but it makes the most sense.
I don't think Al's defense should be part of any long term plan for our frontcourt
That’s what it all boils down to. The guy can play on the offense well but he really embarrasses me as a Jazz fan on defense, despite his block totals.
I’m not saying that Millsap is a ton better, because he’s not. But Sap is more of a team player within the system. Sap doesn’t play 1 on 1 with the defender while the other 4 guys stand around. That drives me nuts with Big Al, even if he does convert a decent amount of times. It’s not the type of basketball I want my team, the Jazz, to play.
Derrick Favors will obviously be a huge part of our rotation going forward. I think that Kanter deserves two or three years to show what he can do, therefore I go with Kanter as well. After that, I have to choose Millsap. Now, it might be worth considering if Millsap’s trade value was considerably higher than Big Al’s, but I don’t think it is.
Conclusion: Favors, Kanter, Millsap
Go Buffalo Bills, Utah Jazz, and Arkansas Razorbacks
OUR KING DOME IS HOLLY GROUND YOU CAN ENTER BUT YOU WILL LEAVE WITH OUT A SOUL - Abayarde, Buffalo Rumblings
I think the 3 need to be
Favors, Kanter and then a 3rd center not yet on roster. I think a great 3 man big trio needs to have one good to elite scorer (both Favors and Kanter can do that) and at least 2 need to be solid, solid post defenders. Kanter will never be a rim protector, but he’ll score and rebound. He needs to be our 3rd big, our Lamar Odom, if you will. Favors is going be our PF version of Zo. Perfect. Our center than needs to be someone who can protect the rim- someone along the lines of Tiago Splitter, Marc Gasol, Bogut, Chandler, Perkins, etc, etc. Now, of course, these types of players aren’t easy to come by. But I think that’s what we need. I know Al and Sap are very good scorers, but Favors should be a 20 ppg guy himself, and I think Kanter will be better than either of them. Plus, to truly be a contender, we need a reliable wing scorer anyways- ie we don’t necessarily need to rely on our 4s and 5s to be our main scoring threat. Really, trying to pry out Asik or Splitter would be, IMO, well worth the ransom we’d have to pay. The 3rd big needs to be a rim protecting center.
Sort of like a Chris Birdman Andersen type?
Go Buffalo Bills, Utah Jazz, and Arkansas Razorbacks
OUR KING DOME IS HOLLY GROUND YOU CAN ENTER BUT YOU WILL LEAVE WITH OUT A SOUL - Abayarde, Buffalo Rumblings
by Dyl on Nov 7, 2011 1:49 PM MST up reply actions
Not quite
More like a Tyson Chandler/Andrew Bogut/Emeka Okafor type. I don’t think the 3rd big needs to be a strong scorer- he just needs to be able to clog the paint and defend the rim. I dont think we’ll ever get a guy that fits this bill, but it’s who we need.
Perhaps a player like Fesenko, if he could only learn to shoot free throws at at least a 75% rate, and could develop a decent 10-foot jump shot, or an effective hookshot or jumphook?
I’d like to see the Jazz re-sign Fesenko at about $1 mil. per year, and then use what’s left of the 2011-2012 season to mix and match line-ups to see what might work best for the future.
I think the Jazz really need to take a good look at the players they have during the upcoming season before they decisions for the long-term.
by Fesenko for President on Nov 7, 2011 3:43 PM MST up reply actions
I meant to say: I think the Jazz really need to take a good look at the players they already have during the upcoming season before they make any decisions for the long-term.
by Fesenko for President on Nov 7, 2011 3:47 PM MST up reply actions
I don't think Fess is going to cut it, although
I like the guy and I wouldn’t be against bringing him back. He’s capable of being a legitimate force on defense.
Go Buffalo Bills, Utah Jazz, and Arkansas Razorbacks
OUR KING DOME IS HOLLY GROUND YOU CAN ENTER BUT YOU WILL LEAVE WITH OUT A SOUL - Abayarde, Buffalo Rumblings
by Dyl on Nov 7, 2011 4:08 PM MST up reply actions
I don't think so.
Splitter over Millsap or Big Al? Really? Splitter is 26 (same as Big Al and older than Sap) and he has played 60 NBA games. The Spurs have high hopes for him, but after he blocked 5 shots in his first 8 games and 12 in his next 58 games. He grabbed double digit rebounds once and struggled getting playing time above the likes of a 36 year old McDyss, a 6’7" Blaire and a “Red Rocket” who averaged 3.7 rebounds per game. Splitter was kind of a disapointment last year. He has potential but he is closer to 30 than 20 and couldn’t take playing time away from 3 guys that aren’t as good as Al and Millsap.
Asik looks like a stud on defense, but he is still only a year younger than Sap and far more limited on offense than either Sap or Big Al. I think the guy would be a solid addition, but again he is only a year younger than Sap and with him you are really hoping that Favors can turn into a scorer, because Asik is very limited on O. He scored 15 points in 147 mins in the playoffs. He is basically Fes with less personality. So why not just bring back Fes for cheaper if this is your guy?
Personally I would rather role the dice that Kanter becomes the rebounding banger he is supposed to be and that Favors turns into the defensive specialist. With those 2 doing their jobs I would rather have Millsap or Big Al than Splitter or Asik. Both Al and Millsap can score the ball and that is helpful in this league and both will look better on D with Favors protecting the rim behind them.
And I also think you are wrong when you said, " to truly be a contender, we need a reliable wing scorer anyways- ie we don’t necessarily need to rely on our 4s and 5s to be our main scoring threat." Really, because if that were how you would “truly be a contender” than Dallas had no business beating Miami in the Finals last year.
First, on Spliiter
he was hurt quite a buit last year, wasn;t he? And Pop has a reputation for not playing rookies. Can’t get PT over McDyess? D Will was getting benched for Fisher and the Nets were benching Favors for Kris H. What does that have to do wtih anythign? He was a rookie playing for a coach notorious for not playing rookies! The guy is never gonna throw up 25 points a night, but he’ll be a solid post defender. I think he’ll be a lot like Marc Gasol. Within 3 years Splitter will be a top 5 defensive center. I’ll bet the farm on that.
Simply for the defense I would prefer Asik over Sap or Al, possibly even Kanter. I’ll make that statement broader: I would prefer a defensive minded Center, with Favors at 4 and our 3rd big the offensive jumpstart. I happen to think a premium defender would be better, right now, for this team, than a premium scorer at the 4 or 5.
Dallas had fairly reliable scoring from the wings. Jason Terry, Marion. Dirk wasn’t the only guy on that team that could score. You look at most championship teams and they have a reliable wing scorer: Jordan and Pippen, Manu, Kobe, Allen and Pierce, Rip, Wade 2006. Many would consider Bird and Worthy wing scorers. Now do they need to be the ONLY scorer? Of course not. A team with only one good scorer who happens to be a wing is what we call the Indiana Pacers. But a team needs a reliable wing scorer to succeed most of the time. Is it an absolute, hard fast rule? No. But it sure helps. I think a big ingredient that the recent Jazz teams have been missing is reliable wing scoring. Not having a good offensive SG sure hurt the Bulls this year. DOn’t be so quick to condemn a statement before thinking it through.
Pop Doesn't play rookies?
Gary Neal, Dejuan Blaire, Garrett Temple, George Hill, were all rookies in the past 3 years that played more minutes per game as rookies than Splitter. Plus Gary Neal, Temple and Hill were all fighting for minutes with Parker and Manu, who are harder to take minutes from than the Red Rocket and 36 year old McDyess.
It isn’t that I don’t think Splitter can be good, I think he can, but the guy doesn’t really protect the rim. He wasn’t that great on D and he had every chance last season to get into the main rotation and he didn’t do it.
Asik was good on Defense, but playing mainly against second unit bigs in a great defensive system defenilty helped him look even better on D. I don’t know how different he is from Fes. So my thought was why mortgage the farm for something that you already have. I also belive that Favors right now doesn’t have the offensive game to be the guy, so I think let him play with Millsap and Al makes more sense to me than relying completely on Favors to learn to be a dominate offensive big man.
Well if you consider Jason Terry and last years Marion as reliable wing scorers then good for you. To me Jason Terry is a good shooter and a huge part of what helped make Dirk so effective, but Terry is a pick and pop catch and shoot floor spacer more than what I would call a wing score. He is basically a 6’ Memo. So maybe you consider Memo a wing scorer and that is what I thought you we talking about, maybe then I will agree with you. But I consider them more reliable shooters than realible scorers.
Marion didn’t play much on the wing last year and he didn’t score that much either so I wouldn’t count him as any kind of scorer at this point in his career. He is a solid team player and defender, but I don’t think he is a scorer.
I understand that you can have a wing scorer and win the title and that most teams do. I would also note that all teams except for Jordan’s Bulls to ever to win the title had an all star level big man that could score the ball. I did think about your statement and I still don’t agree with it, but that was based on the fact that I thought you were implying that a wing scorer score more in the 17- 20+ range rather than the 12- 15 point range. So if you are saying that for a team to win they have to have a wing that scores at least 12 points a game then I would agree with that, but with what I would consider a scorer 17+ points than I still think the comment is wrong. So I guess it all comes down to what a scorer is.
If you're a basketball architect
what does the blue print of a perfect team look like, in your opinion? Honest question.
In my mind, a team needs 2 18+ ppg scorers (yes, I know the Mavs are a notable exception). A defensive big. A 3rd guy that is good enough offensively to keep teams honest. Beyond that rough skeleton, the pieces around it often varies greatly. For instance, the Lakers and Spurs title teams had the 2 scorers (Kobe and Pau; Tim and Manu), good defensive bigs (Bynum and Gasol; Duncan) and the 3rd scorer (Odom, Bynum; Parker) yet the two had very different pieces around them. The makeup of a good team can be flexible, but some pieces really need to be there, or you need to have a perfect storm like the Mavs or ’04 Pistons.
My point then is this: Favors might be the guy that can be scorer 1a or 1b- not sure yet. He also might be the big man defender- this appears nearly certain. If he turns out to be both- all the better. Now in talking about trios of bigs, Kanter, Al and Sap essentially are redundant. They all are (or in EK’s case should be) good scorers, good rebounders- but not necessarily solid, solid defensive minded guys. I realize those 3 have different offensive skill sets and styles, but in terms of what they bring to the court, they are more or less a redundancy, which is why I ideally would like to keep only one of those 3 and have the 3rd big be more of a defensive guy. I’m a huge believer in the difference a defensive minded big man can make. Couple this with a wing that can score (Burks or Hayward, possibly?) and I think we have the makings of a contending team. How do you see the ideal blue print differently (and I apologize for being a bit rude my last comment)?
I didn't take it as rude. I like seeing how others see things.
I coach and personally, I am one that doesn’t think there is a perfect team. To build a team I need to know who my best players talents are and then I would take the team many different ways. If Dirk or Hakeem or young Shaq is my best player, I am going to try to get shooters all around the floor to open up room for them to operate. I would also want my other big to be a great offensive rebounder. As for D if I have Dirk I want pesky guards a solid other forward spot and a good rebounding center. If I have Hakeem, I just need guys who can contest shots and help rebound. If I have Young Shaq, I want atleast 1 if not 2 stoppers that can get over pick and roles them self and not need Shaq to get extended from the hoop. See it depends who I have.
If I have Karl Malone, I want to get him the ball going to the basket like on a Pick and roll or coming off of a cross screen or a down screen. He has power and speed and I want to use that to my advantage. Karl wasn’t as good when He just posted up and tried to go to work. That with Malone too often ended in his fadeaway J. I like my mailman using his speed and strength and going to the rack.
If I have Jordan and Pippen, I don’t need a PG. I don’t need a shot blocker. All I need is a couple shot makers, some good rebounders, and solid position defenders. Pippen and Jordan caused so much trouble on the outside that noeone was getting beat off the dribble so who needs Mark Eaton to block the shot if nobody gets to the basket. I just need a guy like Rodman to get the board when they force the miss.
I look at the Jazz of the late 90s, all the needed was Mark Eaton. To plug the paint. I also think that if they had Rony Seikly they would have one at least one ring.
If I have Reggie Miller, I want a good PG and some big bodies to set screens. I also need a 3 that can defend the 2 or the 3.
If I could have any team I would have the Bird, DJ, Ainge, Parish, and McHale, with Bill Walton coming off the bench. But I can’t say that is a better team than Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Green, and Scott with Thompson and Cooper coming off the bench.
To me you build around your best couple of players and right now, I think Favors needs a guy that can score down low because I don’t think he has that offensive game yet. We do need some shooters and solid perimeter defenders, but I don’t think with Favors’ skill set it is as important to have a Mark Eaton playing along side him.
One team that interests me in the discussion of "team building"
Is the 1996-1997 Miami Heat. They assembled a fantastic roster. Hardaway was the scoring, slashing PG. Voshen L and Marjle could shoot. Mashburn was a good wing scorer. Then they had PJ Brown and Alonzo Mourning at the 4 and 5- both fantastic defenders. The summer of 1996, they had signed Juwan Howard to a contract that was later nullified by the NBA. I wonder, what would have happened had that team been allowed to keep Howard?
They would have had 3 guys capable of dropping over 18 on a given nigh, plus several complementary shooterst. 3 stud rebounders and low post defenders. As it was they won 61 games and were ousted in the Eastern Finals. The thing about that team that interests me, is that I really feel that sort of team makeup is within the Jazz’s grasp. That 61 win team had no stand out sure fire HOFer (though I think Zo should be)- they were just a solidly built team from top to bottom, though they had the unfortunate circumstance of being contemporaries of Michael Jordan (the bain of other greats from Barkley to Ewing to Stockton/Malone)
I don’t think the Jazz will get a 30 point a night guy like Durant, Kobe, Wade, etc. But I do think we can assemble a top to bottom team built on solid All (though not necessarily super) stars, much in the way the Heat built around Hardaway, Mashburn and Zo (all stars without the ‘super’)
Favors may well be defensively dominant enough to be the main defensive big- though I certainly wouldn’t mind another. I think we are well on our way to building an all around solid team. The 2012 pick will probably be the final missing link- at that point I think we will have a better idea of who fits where.
I agree with your statement that Jefferson, Kanter and Millsap are redundant, as far as their role.
If that is the case, and if Kanter shows he can provide close to the same scoring punch, rebounding (and defense) as Jefferson and Millsap, but at a lower price, then it is a no-brainer to make him the starter, and trade one of either Jefferson or Millsap.
Several considerations should go into which one to trade, such as, which one can provide a better rotation combination (namely, which one plays better with both Kanter and Favors); which one has the most trade value; which one has the cheapest salary; which one is most willing to be a backup; which one has a playing style that fits better with the remaining Jazz players; which one would be the better starter if either Kanter or Favors suffers an injury (or turns out not to be quite as good as expected); which one has the most unique skills that would be difficult to replace; which one is the most durable.
Jefferson has the largest salary, and I suspect he also has the most trade value. Jefferson’s size may make him the best player combination with both Kanter and Favors and the best alternate starter. However, Millsap’s style probably gels a bit better with the other Jazz players. It’s hard to say who has the most unique skills, who is the most durable and who would be most willing to play a backup role. If the Jazz chooses to keep Millsap over Jefferson, I think it becomes more important for the Jazz to also have a very large, defensive-type center on their roster. Fesenko would appear to be the player that could fill that role the cheapest, with the least amount of ego (i.e., without demanding playing time).
It will be interesting to see what happens.
by Fesenko for President on Nov 8, 2011 12:54 PM MST up reply actions
I love that we're debating basketball stuff again.
Absolutely love it.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Here's a total team that would kick butt (assuming the kids reach their potential)
Frontcourt starters: Favors & Kanter
SF: Terrence Jones (my dream 2012 pick)
SG: Hayward
PG: Deron’s triumphant return to Utah :)
Bench: Fes, AK (doing the backup front-court duties, with AK also putting in some backup SF), Burks, Watson
That team would be freaking awesome.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Oh no! Another Terrence Jones apologist I will have to fight off. Just kidding. But he needs to improve a ton this year to be worth a high pick.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
My dream 2012 pick
is James McAdoo, Harrison Barnes or Mycky Kabongo
We need a season desperately if they go with that aggregate record deal to determine picks.
Have a season. Probably have two picks around number 9. No season, probably just the 19th pick.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
If the Jazz make the playoffs and are in line for the 19th pick, that pick has been traded to Minnesota.
The Jazz only keep the Jazz’s first round pick this year, if it is in the lottery (it’s lottery protected). Therefore, if there is no season, the Jazz will only have a second round pick (if the Jazz haven’t already traded that pick, as well).
by Fesenko for President on Nov 9, 2011 12:16 PM MST up reply actions
I don't get the Harrison Barnes excitement
He looks awkward dribbling. He looks awkward standing at the free throw line. He looks awkward just existing.
Can someone really be a great player when everything bout him looks so graceless?
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I suspect Harrison Barnes
will be about the same quality as Luol Deng. So good, sure, but nothing to write home to mother about. I wouldn’t mind Barnes, but I think wing wise I might prefer James McAdoo. Also, some intriguing PGs, like Kabongo and even Marquis Teague.
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