Five Changes I Would Like To See With The Jazz - The Downbeat - #651
by Basketball John on Dec 29, 2011 9:29 AM MST
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Let Favors play. This was the second game in a row where Favors saw no action until the third quarter after getting into foul trouble early. If you want to take him out after he picks up two quick fouls, that's fine. He's got to learn though and this isn't something that can be achieved readily in practice and he certainly can't learn riding the bench. He has to be in real-game situations against real opponents and learn how to defend without fouling.
There's no reason why he shouldn't have been out there to begin the second quarter. I don't know if Corbin is punishing Favors or what his MO is behind benching him for that long but it's not going to help with his development.
He's your starter for crying out loud. Get him back on the floor.
What's perplexing is this quote from Corbin in the Deseret News,
Giving up lobs, drives, backdoor cuts and transition baskets disgusted Corbin.
"That's unacceptable," he said. "That's just effort. That's disappointing."
I guess it's not the quote that's perplexing so much as his decision to not sit the man that was the victim of all of those backdoor cuts. Namely Raja Bell. If Corbin is going to sit Favors for a couple of fouls then Raja should be seeing the bench for his porous D. The whole team is to blame for the poor defense but Bell is getting beat routinely. You can say it's just a couple of games but in reality it's a continuation of last season.
Bell can still fit in with this team and fill a role but that role is no longer a starter going up against elite shooting guards. And with two years left on his deal and his poor play, he has exactly zero trade value. The Jazz would have to pay someone to take him at this point. Wouldn't it be much easier, and much cheaper, to regulate him to the bench? His role was gone as soon the Jazz started faltering last season and Deron Williams was traded. He was brought on to help a veteran team and provide defense. We're neither a veteran team anymore and he's not playing defense.
I love Raja and what he's done for this franchise, but there needs to be a change here. He's not giving us the best chance to win.
What direction is this team going? I think one of the reasons why so many people are saying that this team has no identity is that there's no clear goal. Kevin O'Connor won't use the term rebuilding. So if we're not rebuilding and we're not contending, what are we doing? We're certainly not "competing" as O'Connor would say. Competing isn't a team goal. What exactly are we competing for? The number 5 pick?
Give this team and its players a clear cut goal. They'll be fine so long as they have expectations. This hodgepodge we have now is just prolonging the inevitable and puts the team's rebuilding goal back a season.
Those that have read me for a while know that I don't normally overreact. True, this is only two games. And the Jazz have played two playoff teams on the road on a back to back. And if that were the case, then you wouldn't be reading this right now. It certainly plays a part, but again, this is a continuation from last season's play. I don't think playing the youngsters could result in anything worse right now.
There are a lot of other teams that are 0-2 or 0-3 right now namely the Celtics, the Mavs, and the Grizzlies. The difference is that they will pull out of their funk because they have the talent to do so.
The lockout affected the Jazz a little more than every other team given their youth and player turnover. It takes years for teams to come together and the shortened pre-season and training camp along with no summer league all contributed to that.
That's why the first part of the season is still a training camp of sorts. I know these are regular season games that actually count for something, but a big part of training camp is for evaluation. If that's the case, we need to see the younger players evaluated in some other way that garbage time. It doesn't have to be with starter's minutes but they do need to be minutes of significance. Yes, my primary objective here is to plead for more minutes for Alec Burks. If Bell, or CJ, or whoever is playing the two plays poorly on a defensive play, sit him and bring in Burks. If anything it could serve as a wake-up call. At this point, it seems Corbin is afraid to confront his veterans or do anything that could be perceived as a slight.
Finally, the last change I would like to see is with the fans. Developing and advancing this team would be a tall order for any coach, even if Sloan were still at the helm. This season can be categorized as a work in progress. There are going to be many more frustrating nights. The highlights are going to be fewer than the lowlights, but they will come. We want a contender and a team that we can be proud of but we don't want to pay the price.
This is not to say you can't continue to vent your frustrations with the team, the coach, or the players. We all look back at the 2004 team of scrappers that nearly went to the playoffs when they were projected to break the single-season record for losses. That team had a direction and a leader. The team then lucked into Carlos Boozer after what went down there. He wasn't even supposed to be available. Then an injury filled season landed the team an All-star point guard. We were spoiled a bit by a quick team turnaround. Most haven't had to go through a full rebuilding process.
As much as we want to turn the team over to the young players, it's not going to happen this season. Raja Bell isn't going anywhere. Al Jefferson isn't going anywhere. I don't think we see anyone going anywhere. Before you know it, this season will be over and we'll be looking forward to the draft and the hopes of a new season. So enjoy the high points, but expect a lot of frustration. That will make things all the more enjoyable when this team becomes good.
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Amen
I don’t really see how Corbin can justify starting Bell anymore. Its plain to everyone that he doesn’t have it in him. How many curl shots have we seen him NOT take in the 4 games so far? Something I mentioned over at nbadraft, is playing Hayward at the one on offense, then switching back to two on D, with Harris playing as a two guard on offense. It certainly wouldn’t hurt to try it out.
Utah>*
#5
Very well said BBJ. I have a hard time reading fellow Jazz fans that are screaming for Corbin’s head after 2 games (or for that matter in the 3rd quarter of opening night). Let’s go ahead and give him some time. I don’t care if Red Auerbach or Dr. Naismith is our coach this season, we’re not winning the title. Just like our younger players need time to develop, let Corbin develop as well.
I do agree that he has had some bumps early on, but I think after the next week and half with our home schedule everyone will settle in a bit more and we will see who this team really is going to be.
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I don't think anyone is expecting Corbin to win
We want him to develop the players that are our future. Raja Bell is not our future. Play our lottery picks more than garbage time. I don’t think it is unrealistic to expect that, even two games into the season.
Follow me on twitter @JD23UT
by JD23UT on Dec 29, 2011 2:57 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions
Amen and amen
In fairness to Bell, the only way to defend NBA wings is with team defense. The Kobe crossover dunk that will undoubtedly get replayed all year will make Bell look old and silly, but in fact, he did his job.
Watch the replay and see how Bell slows Kobe, then shifts his feet to force him to the sideline/baseline EXACTLY AS CORBIN HAS ASKED THE PLAYERS TO DO and then see how Millsap is on the far side of the basket looking the other way…
Millsap’s job is to be underneath the basket with his back to the fans, head on a swivel to see his man and the ball. This is high school level team defense, and he’s an NBA veteran who has played for Jerry Sloan. If he’s under the basket with an eye on the ball, as soon as Kobe crosses over, he can step out and cut off that drive. The other players then have to rotate….I’m not saying Kobe wouldn’t have found a good pass to make…..but he wouldn’t have had an uncontested dunk.
So….yeah, Bell is not helping our team given the circumstances of our team. But our failures as a team are complex.
Regarding #4, it’s interesting that Corbin is coddling the vets. Jerry never coddled anybody. I’m not sure if Corbin is trying to be himself or trying to be Jerry. He sounds like Jerry in the press. But he’s changed the defensive philosophy to a more modern view. He is, according to #4, coddling vets. He’s teaching (presumably) from the sidelines. He’s not super rigid with his rotations yet – though it’s probably too early to tell. I think this is an interesting subject to keep an eye on – how Corbin is Corbin vs. how Sloan is Corbin, for better or worse.
I'll make it coach.
same thing happened last night
I saw Hayward near the 3 point line pushing someone to the baseline and the Denver player manages to get past Hayward and roll to the inside for an easy layup and not a single Jazz player was behind Hayward. It made Gordon look like a terrible defender but that was 100% complete lack of team defense.
I should say..
there were 2 moments like this last night the first time was Hayward’s fault for not staying infront of his man and then complaining about being hooked to the refs at that point Corbin was irate for Hayward allowing the easy basket.
The second time though was lack of team defense.
#2
Bell getting the p/t as a starter, while the most consistent player they have is the 6th man…it makes no sense.
Start Hayward at the 2. He’s a better fit there with Harris. Harris plays better with out the ball in his hands. If he can hit those 3 pointers, why not have him play off the ball
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
by EcERyda69 on Dec 29, 2011 10:05 AM MST via mobile reply actions
Panic Button at the ready..
1) Agree 100% Let Favors play until he fouls out he has to play to improve and learn. The only other problem I’ve seen as to why he might be taking Favors out so early is that Favors doesn’t look to be in good shape at the moment. He looked gassed early on last night.
2) I too remember Raja back when he was good for 15 points any given night back when the Jazz lost Stock/Malone. Loved Raja then but he no longer has legs to stay in front of people. Last night Raja got blown by every Nuggets player. About the coaching I think Corbin has been AWFUL. Sorry to say it and I realize alot of people are always going to support and defend the coach but he keeps playing Raja when he’s unproductive and a detriment to the team. Even the game before Corbin should not have played players that were shooting horribly and playing terrible defense making them ineffective on both ends of the floor while keeping Favors on the bench. Whats worse to me is the lack of playing time for people we should be developing. You’d like to see more of Burks while I’d love to see more of Evans. Instead we get Josh Howard who won’t be here past this year taking up time that should be going to developing our second year players and rookies. I’m hoping this changes as the year goes on but it’s tough to see Howard throw up balls without any aim randomly at the basket when I know Evans can do alot better.
3) The players on this team have no defined roles. Who are the playmakers? Harris has no floor vision to see developing plays, Earl Watson whom we all love has been terrible so far and as much as I hate the guy and as much as it pains me to say this Tinsley is currently our best PG. And
what about the scorers? The only guys that have been scoring for us the last 2 games are Favors and Millsap both in Garbage time/bench roles. I see guys running routes and the ball just stays at the top of the key and then gets passed to the black hole (Jefferson).
Jefferson is quite possibly the worst player I have ever seen in the History of the NBA. The game last night I watched him receive the ball on the low block and he instantly got quad teamed. There was a team-mate WIDE OPEN standing behind him waiting for the ball ready to throw up a 3. And what does Jefferson do? He throws the ball to Hayward who is 2 feet away from him surrounded by the ENTIRE DENVER team.
I was screaming profanities so loud at that point that I was afraid my neighbors my alert the authorities.
This team has alot of talent it is up to the coaches to realize that talent and figure out properly utilize players and give them correct instructions.
I realize it’s a young season and players and coaches need more time to gel and I do believe things will improve but not by much especially with the lack of any real practice time teams will have this season.
For right now I have to blame the coaches Tyrone Corbin and Scott “Worst Franchise in Sports” Layden that this team looks so unorganized because it is their job to handle these things.
Strong words there.
I know you are upset and are probably aware of the overstatement, but AJ? The worst player ever? Come on man.
by unitedelectric on Dec 29, 2011 10:29 AM MST up reply actions
Ok I admit it..
..he does have one or 2 good post moves but gosh he angers me so much. What’s worse is everyone telling me how he is just 26 and has time to develop. I don’t believe it at all. We’re stuck with what we see.
He is what he is
You are right about that, but there has to be off-ball movement on the perimeter when he is in the post. It’s not all just on him.
by unitedelectric on Dec 29, 2011 10:51 AM MST up reply actions
Jefferson's D stinks
I am more worried about Jefferson’s defense than his offense. Although everybody’s defense on the Jazz stinks right now, I think Jefferson’s is one of the worst. This is nothing new. He has never had any interest in helping out any of his teammates.
no kidding
Did you see all the standing around last night? They’re standing around watching Jefferson on offense and then not running back on defense. Where is the effort? It feels like watching an old man church ball league. What happened to the flex offense and the guards setting picks in the paint?
Evans can do a lot better?
I don’t know what the reasoning behind playing Howard is at this point. We already know the Jazz are going to lose a lot this year, but why lose while giving minutes to Howard, who surely cannot be a part of any long term Jazz plans. However, Howard is not taking any minutes away from Evans in that they don’t play the same position. Howard has played the 3 so far, and although Evans has the body of a 3, he can’t play that position. Evans hasn’t shown either an outside shot or any ballhandling skills to warrant playing time at the 3. Other than weakside help to block shots, and tip-jams or alley-oops, I don’t see that Evans offers anything of real value to the Jazz. His lack of strength and size leaves him ineffective on both sides of the court.
by CJ's Smokehouse on Dec 29, 2011 1:03 PM MST up reply actions
So happy to see someone who agrees
The stats don’t show it, but whenever I watch this team I can’t get past how horrible Jefferson is in every way.
The way he plays offense throws the entire rotation, spacing, movement and everything else so badly. It’s, well, downright offensive.
He is, in my opinion, hands down the worst player on the entire team. He just happens to be gifted with being large and can score a few points if he touches the ball enough.
Dude, you posted again!
Love the morgan avatar by the way.
And you’re right that it all comes down to Al. I wouldn’t go as far as you in describing him, but I’d say that the root of most of the team’s problems come from his play. Sad, but true.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Must be family. Only a midget could so loquaciously defile Al.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
#3
I couldn’t agree with this more. It feels like there is indecision coming from the FO, and I feel like it is not great for Corbin. I don’t know if he is getting pressure to play certain people, or he is putting that pressure on himself because KOC has said we are competing this year. But it would certainly be helpful for Corbin if he had realistic goals, and could adjust his rotations accordingly.
I was thinking this as well.
You always hear about front offices telling coaches to play certain people because they want to try to raise their trade value. After these first two games that seems to be the thought I keep coming back to
by Pasta_Champion on Dec 29, 2011 11:14 AM MST via Android app up reply actions
If that were true
the trade values of Bell, Harris, Miles and others would be better preserved by NOT playing them.
I'll make it coach.
My thoughts as well
Either that or Corbin doesn’t have much backbone in dealing with the vets (Raja). It doesn’t make much sense one way or the other.
yojimbo is jazzed
2011-2012 is our 2012-2013 pre-season
by jazzed on Dec 29, 2011 1:42 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
IMO
which happens to overlap somewhat with the opinions of some others on here…
1) if Howard is just going to chuck the ball at every opportunity, I don’t want him playing
2) if Bell is going to pass on open shots within the offense & play poor D, I don’t want him playing
3) Hayward is one of the best facilitators on the team & should be playing the 2 G spot
4) Favors should not be yanked at his 2nd foul, give him at least until his 3rd
5) Burks & Evans need more minutes, which I think should come at the expense of Bell & Howard
A couple of strange things from last night
1) That Hayward bow-by as he stood there complaining before the play was over was really weird. Ty got up on it, and rightfully so, but I have to lay this one on Gordon. That was a prima donna, Snickers-commercial diva move. Now, I’m not one to advocate for the placating of egos, but the kid is not happy with his place on the team right now. That is directly tied to the minutes given to Bell and Howard. That situation needs to be adjusted yesterday. No excuses about Ty and it being early or any of that pap.
2) That second foul from Favors was a slap-down “get me the hell out of the game” foul, plain as day. So, I’ll repeat, “that was a prima donna, Snickers-commercial diva move. Now, I’m not one to advocate for the placating of egos, but the kid is not happy with his place on the team right now”. That probably has something to do with not one single post play being called for the kid, ever. All of his plays come off of put-backs and open plays. I do not buy the line that he has no moves. He has a really good back-down to get within range of a nasty dunk. He also has the slashing ability to go left or right, around defenders and to the rim. And why not give him a few shots from the elbow?
That last one is the most urgent. We cannot afford to let him not develop. We move a lot of pieces to get him here and make room for him. Don’t sit him after two fouls and try to develop him as the destination player that he is. He is not a junk-time guy.
The Raja thing is valid, but overplayed. Burks will work his way to point/2 spot by mid-season. Take care of #1 above and it will heal itself.
by unitedelectric on Dec 29, 2011 10:42 AM MST reply actions
One of the biggest side effects of not giving the youngsters playing time
Is that they will become more and more frustrated with lack of playing time. Remember, prior to the draft Enes Kanter publicly said he didn’t want the Jazz to draft him because of the already existing logjam. Fortunately, Jazz brass were able to quell his fears and he is getting pretty decent burn- but these worries are on the tops of young guy’s minds, be sure of that.
by Stockton2Malone on Dec 29, 2011 11:57 AM MST up reply actions
They have to do something about the logjam!
I also agree 125% and with other comments above. Corbin is going to have some very unhappy players if they don’t figure out what they are doing. Milsap is already angry that he isn’t starting and the youngins will get angry quickly if the more senior players continue to stink. They need to deal at least one big (preferably in a package for a decent point guard).
The Jazz have too much B talent. In fact, I would argue that all of the players on the roster are B to B- talent. So how to you separate one B player from another without all of the other B’s getting frustrated. It would be better if they had more variance in their talent pool.
Its a nightmare for Corbin! And, I think it is a nightmare for the players. It shows because the players aren’t putting forth much effort. It will be interesting to what Corbin does to motivate these players. I personally think that no matter who he plays, the players are going to be unhappy and unmotivated. Really, what do you do if you are in Corbin’s shoes to motivate these guys?
Coaches Nightmare
Corbin is in an awful spot right now. We’re going through pre-season situations regarding figuring out who gets minutes, only the games count and fans are pissed already at the losing. My main concern is with Raja. Getting smoked by a motivated Kobe is one thing, but getting beat repeatedly back door by Grandpa Andre Miller is just unacceptable, especially when Raja isn’t contributing anything on the other end. If Raja’s play continues like this, there is no justifying playing him.
by CJ's Smokehouse on Dec 29, 2011 1:10 PM MST up reply actions
That concerns me
More with Favors committing that second foul in the first qtr. He really seemed like he didn’t care. That’s why I want the offense to completely open up. No more pseudo Slaon offense half court offense please. No more, vets getting the nod only. Favors need to be involved.
Favors checking out already?
I didn’t see the first Portland game where Favors was apparently a beast, but he had to be somewhat involved in the offense in order to get 25 points, right? It’s frustrating to watch him get in foul trouble early, but I don’t think he’s checked out quite yet. It was encouraging early in the third quarter when he was matched up defensively on Nene. Each time Nene got the ball in the post, he wasn’t able to do anything, whereas the rest of the game, Nene was dunking on everybody.
by CJ's Smokehouse on Dec 29, 2011 1:16 PM MST up reply actions
The Nuggets were having to really work to score
until Favors was yanked for getting foul number 2. That’s what started the floodgates.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Rough start but I don't mind
We’ve had some good years. I don’t mind being in the running for the Harrison Barnes lotto.
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1. Another way to look at it would be to make it clear to Favors that he has to learn how to defend without fouling so much if he wants to earn more playing time. Perhaps that’s what Corbin is aiming at.
2. Bell is definitely not what he used to be, there’s no question. I see value in his leadership, but he’s not much of a help on the floor anymore.
3. We’re a team in transition and we need to at least admit that much. The main question should be how exactly we want this transition to play out.
4. At least Corbin was willing to say every spot is up for grabs. I like that he was willing to put Favors in the starting lineup. I would say that beyond Hayward, this team is pretty weak at the wings, at least until Burks develops into something more formidable.
5. As Jazz fans, we’re spoiled. We saw the Stockton/Malone era last abnormally long. If you look at the NBA, almost every roster is completely different than it was 5 years ago, but we had a team that stayed competitive for 15+ years while led by Karl & John. It leads us to frustration when the Boozer/Williams era didn’t last that long. It’s the same with rebuilding. The previous rebuilding happened so quickly, we expect it to be just as fast next time around. The truth is, we’re already ahead of the game in rebuilding thanks to the Deron trade. It netted us 2 young bigs. Add Hayward and Burks to that and we at least have a head start on the process. If we’re willing to be patient as fans, this could turn into something special down the road, especially if we get another talented young player or 2 in the 2012 draft.
#3
I find KOC and Ty’s comments interesting about the direction of the team but I’ve really been intrigued by the reaction of the fans. Maybe this slides under #5 a little as well but I’m curious where fans are at on the “where do you want to see the Jazz go this year” question. The overwhelming sentiment that I get from the game posts and twitter, etc is that after just two games all of the fans are already pounding the “rebuild” button with all of their might. Granted some people were calling for this all summer but I was in the “we’re a trade or two away from contending camp” about 72 hrs ago. Maybe I was drunk on the kool aid but I still really like our pieces.
I’ll admit I’ve spent far too much time on the NBA Trade Machine wheeling and dealing but I still am optimistic about the near future for this team. IN KOC WE TRUST!
Right with you on this
I thought we might have a shot at being competitive. Wanted to see what Al could do coming back in great shape. Wanted to give Harris the benefit of the doubt. Even hoped Bell could come back as somewhat of his former self.
Now? Al is what he is and that’s not going to change. Enough said as to Raja. And Harris I just don’t like as a PG unless we are a look to break at every opportunity team. I’ll agree with one of the other posters – after two games – Tinsley looks to be the best PG on the floor (next to Hayseed – heh).
I’m all in – let the rebuilding and youth movement begin.
yojimbo is jazzed
2011-2012 is our 2012-2013 pre-season
by jazzed on Dec 29, 2011 2:01 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
#1
Someone should seriously be asking Ty this question at shoot around. BTS is usually the one that gets to be a douche and asks the questions that piss people off. I would like to know what Ty says and for someone to get to the bottom of this. Why is he averaging 17.5 mins/game?
Also, so far in each game all 13 players have gotten into the game. When does Ty tighten it up a little? Does he know that the preseason is over? Just checking…
I can answer the 13 players question
I am sure that 13 guys won’t play if we aren’t down by 20 points in the 4th quarter, but if you are getting blown out like that most coaches put in the end of the bench. If he plays all 13 in a close game, then I will wonder.
Besides, it takes awhile to figure out your rotations
Especially when you didn’t have much of a training camp/preseason.
I think the Jazz are learning the hardway
that there is no middle ground when it comes to rebuilding. If you keep the veterans around, you risk alienating the future. It is reasonable for Corbin to have some loyalty to the old regime. He has been coaching with the Jazz since 2004. He has long standing relationships with many of the Jazz veterans.
Let the youth play!
I agree totally with Basketball John. It’s very clear Raja Bell is too old, too slow and hurts the team immensely. Bench him. Devin Harris is no point guard or at least a not very good point guard. KO’C needs to look hard at a trade for a better point guard. I hear the Clippers are three deep all-stars at the point. I miss D-Will. My starters would be: Favors, Kanter, Milsap, Hayward, and I guess Burks (since we don’t have a good point guard anyhow). Burks couldn’t possibly have any more turnovers than Harris has in each of the first two games.
by Markus_Aralius on Dec 29, 2011 12:25 PM MST reply actions
Can I just say I'm really excited about this team?
They may not win a lot of games this year and it will be a frustrating season (or two) for us as fans, but you can see there is a ton of potential here.
Favors + Hayward + Burks + Kanter + 2012 Lottery Pick + GSW Pick = Possibly incredibly dangerous team 3-4 years from now.
Anything can happen and it could fall apart in an instant, but right now I’m feeling pretty optimistic about the future of this team.
I agree mostly
I just need to see that we can cultivate young talent. That’s the biggest x-factor here.
by unitedelectric on Dec 29, 2011 2:12 PM MST up reply actions
2 regarding the defense
Our defense is really bad. I believe once we address our defensive deficiencies, we can be a competing team. It was an issue last season, it is still a problem. Opposing teams getting easy buckets is one of the more frustrating things to see as a fan.
everyone needs to take a step back
Like you said its been two games. I really don’t think you can call for anyone’s head. Remember that they have only been playing for a couple weeks. That said we have some serious problems and if anyone thinks that bell not starting is going to solve all of our problems you are crazy. It goes much deeper than that.
Of course I don’t think bell should start but by all accounts he came into camp looking good and Corbin has said he deserved to start and I respect that. Does he deserve it now? No. Does burks deserve I start? Not yet but he does deserve more time. But again we keep talking about the same things that aren’t going to suddenly make us a great team. The whole mentality of the team is skewed and I think it’s because we lack a leader that’s leads ON and OFF the court.
Just one other thing I dont get the hate for bell when Harris has do e nothing outside of a few 3s last night? I honestly think no one knows how to play with him. Seems like everytime he is just dumping the ball to big al. It’s completely different when earl or even tinsley are out there they try to manage the game. I think the biggest problem is no one will change their game for the team. They all are just waiting for everyone to figure out how THEY play.
by woopal on Dec 29, 2011 12:38 PM MST via iPhone app reply actions
with your point on the second paragragh
I also see that the team lacks team chemistry. No real flow on offense. I have to say that the coaching staff needs to figure out what needs to be done and make adjustments. I don’t see any difference from last season and this. Yes, they switched up how the team plays defense but honestly I don’t think it was our defensive philosophy that needed fixing.
Corbin...
Jazz under Corbin: 8 W 22 L = 27%
Last 15 games: 3 W 12 L = 20%
The team hasn’t changed much since Corbin was handed head coach except the loss of AK. I think we have seen enough already.
Sloan's last 14 games
4 W 10 L = 28.5%
In other words, it didn’t start with Corbin and is not necessarily just a coaching issue. The jury is still out on Tyrone, but at least give him a chance. Besides, these are small sample sizes. I’m not saying you give him 5 years, but you give him the benefit of the doubt for a couple of seasons.
Exactly
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
Way too early
It’s impossible to know whether Corbin will make it as a coach or not at this point. Somebody, whether Corbin or a player, needs to take on the responsibility of being a leader. It can’t be Big Al unless he learns how to defend and pass out of a double team, and Raja has the mentality, but can’t back it up on the court. It’s still early in the season, but hopefully somebody will step up soon to give the team an identity.
by CJ's Smokehouse on Dec 29, 2011 1:25 PM MST up reply actions
Identity
I dont think the players need to find it. It should be up to Corbin to instill the type of identity he wants for this team. He cant just throw a ball out there and expect them to find their way. He’s got to put his own imprint on this team.
Jerry Sloans teams were known for being hard nosed, hard workers, and a no nonsense type team. We dont know what Corbins team is, but I hope he finds out soon before he loses the locker room. This identity thing was something I heard from Corbin last year, I dont know how many more post game speeches these guys can take of the same message being repeated over and over again.
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
It's early, but he's already shown some very negative tendencies
He doesn’t seem to care much about giving the youngsters PT to develop them. He’s starting Raja Bell. That’s just inexcusable. There’s more than enough proof that he’s not worthy of a starting spot, and Corbin hasn’t acted accordingly. That indicates he’s a coach that heavily prefers veterans over inexperienced players, and that doesn’t bode well for a rebuilding team.
I really agree with this
My only caveat is that we don’t know what the FO is telling him. The FO signed Howard and Tinsley, not Corbin. It’s a huge problem for me, however, that we are in the middle of a youth movement and our headcoach has been with he team for the past seven years and is bound to feel some loyalty toward the veterans he has been coaching for numerous years.
Re-read
I said you don’t give him 5 years, but you do give him the benefit of the doubt for a couple of seasons. This is especially true when you consider he was thrown into an incredibly tough situation.
The true test of whether Corbin is a good coach or not will not be how many wins the Jazz get this year, but whether the team starts to develop into a coherent unit over the next couple of years.
Remember, Corbin is essentially a rookie too…
My bad...
Reading at work… minimizing and maximizing based on the foot steps sounds coming from the hallway.
I agree with you but I am not seeing any hopes in this guy. What annoys me the most is that he emulates exact things I hated about Sloan: easier on the vets, not subbing based on match ups, …
I would hope the FO woudl pull the plug after 2-3 years of Crap
If they let it go for 5 years…then their is something seriously wrong with the FO
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
I agree with this
I think we’ll learn a lot about him by the end of this season.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Very good points BBJ:
Let me add…
- We can’t completely judge a coach game-by-game, so we will see about Corbin. So far I have been disappointed, but he also needs to learn.
- I don’t think a single one of our vets are starting quality on a contender
* We all agree Bell is done.
* Harris looks awful… he could be a good third guard, but he is not starter quality.
* Jefferson’s defense is still unbelievable bad. Really, really bad. I just rewatched the first quarter. Nene abused him bad, and he was so bad on P/Rs I don’t know what to say. He should be a third big at best on a contender.
*Millsap is looking good, but this is what I concluded last year: He is effective for about 25 mins… as long as he has his legs… he is not tall enough to be flat footed. He is also a third big.
- It looks like Howard might be looking to pad his stats looking towards next year.
- CJ looks like a good rotation player, but not a starter. His ceiling still is Jamal Crawford, and that is all Crawford is.
— What I conclude from all this is that the first part of the season, with the vets playing a central role, we will be near the bottom of the league. Seriously, we might not be better than a 20-46 team if this were to play out all year.
The good news is that I think sometime around game ten, when we are 2-8, changes will start happening.Millsap is a starter
Most contenders have a group of all stars or a pair of superstars, surrounded by quality players. The Lakers won championships with Trevor Ariza/Ron Artest and Derek Fisher starting, and none of them was better than Millsap. The Chicago Bulls have Hamilton and Brewer at SG, and neither is better than Millsap. At this point, Jason Kidd is also a worse player than Paul Millsap, and he was last year’s champions’ starting PG.
No need to mention the Miami Heat’s starting PG and C…
I don’t know if you agree, but I think Millsap is a better player than Kendick Perkins, too.
Being a starter on a contending team doesn’t mean being a near all-star. Even if Paul is only effective for 25 mins, his overall production is better than that of contending teams’ starters I mentioned. A team with two all-stars, a good defensive system, a good defensive C and good shooters would have no problem contending with Millsap as their starting PF. Being a starter on a contending team doesn’t really mean much. Being a star, a defensive anchor or a head coach on a contending team is what really tends to require a very high level of talent/skill.
I actually believe that a healthy Al, being in the same circumstances I described for Millsap and playing next to a big man with range, could start on a contending team, too. I understand if you disagree though, as Al hasn’t shown with the Jazz the effectiveness I believe he’s capable of having.
Though the positions are different, I think the better comparison is with Jason Terry.
Because of how Dallas uses him, Terry is ultra-effective, and he closes games out. That is probably more of what Millsap could be for a contender. I am a big Millsap fan, but because of the match-ups, and because of the minutes, I think he is better off the bench. He should be on the floor at crunch time, for any team.
Devin's assists
It doesn’t bother me that Gordon Hayward had more assists than Devin Harris, as I think Gordon is a playmaker and is at his best when he can contribute with his passing skills.
However, when your starting point guard has half as many assists as Al Jefferson… something is wrong. The offense wasn’t too bad last night (defense was a bigger issue), but we can’t get that kind of production from Harris and expect to be successful.
Burks, Harris, OG, Favors, Jefferson
If Harris can’t run the offense let someone else try. Burks may be able to stay in front of somebody. Bring Sap in earlier for either Al or Favors preferably Al. I want see more of Sap and Favors together.
The Key Word is Time
First off, the thing I have zero tolerance for more than anything is how fans are already calling for Ty’s head. He’s still fresh, he was thrown into a difficult situation, endured a lockout (keep in mind that he couldn’t talk with players then), and has had very little precious time to get a team that’s still dealing with massive player and system turnover.
Give him a full off-season or 2 to solidify his system and roster, and if he still doesn’t produce, then I’d question his coaching ability. I’m also beginning to think that he and Jeff Hornacek could one day be a great coaching duo, not unlike Jerry Sloan and Phil Johnson, if given the proper time to get everyone on the same page.
Something similar goes for the players; yes, many are playing with little energy, and yes, guys like Raja and Howard aren’t what they used to be, but I’m confident time will heal most of these problems. We all need to be a little patient; I don’t know if anyone has any direction for this year (maybe everyone was planning on missing the season), but I trust the FO in the long-term.
"You've watched him...display much more athleticism in a 00 Jazz jersey than the only Utah player to wear that number (Greg Ostertag)..."
Article on the Utah Jazz Bear.
A full off-season or two?
That’s a really really long time from now. Our young guys could be ruined by then.
Not saying he shouldn’t be given a chance, but he needs to know that developing the young guys is his #1 priority.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Corbin is destroying this team's future
By giving old and unproductive veterans the playing time that should go to the youngsters, Corbin is doing serious damage to this team’s future. At this rate, Favors will never reach his potential and will end up being traded and flourishing with a team that gives him the minutes he deserves.
If Corbin is being honest
he will have to bench Raja soon. He’s the worst starting SG in the league, on a team that has better SGs.
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