The Downbeat - 15 March 2011 - #446 - The Start CJ Edition
by Basketball John on Mar 15, 2011 10:36 AM MDT
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I'm not sure what more CJ needs to do get into the starting rotation. He got the start over Bell last night though I don't know whether that was because Bell was hobbled a bit or whether he wanted to make a change. Corbin didn't commit to starting CJ going forward.
He's not having the best shooting year but when he's out there to start, the team normally gets off to good starts. He's been part of the top 5-man units all year and we know that he was part of the best 5-man unit the Jazz had. He's fourth on the team in win shares and leads the guards in defensive win shares. His defense and rebounding may be his biggest contributions this season.
Is he the long-term answer at the 2/3? He's still relatively young and has a lot of years left in him, so he could be. But at least for the immediate future, and certainly at least through the end of the season, he should be.
A Wolf Among Wolves has a great breakdown of the plays that were involved NBA referee Bill Sooner's suit against a beat writer for tweeting that he would give Kurt Rambis a make-up call.
According to Krawczynski’s [beat writer] allegedly unfair and damning tweet, "Ref Bill Spooner told Rambis he’d "get it back" after a bad call. Then he made an even worse call on Rockets. That’s NBA officiating folks."
Scott Schroeder of SB Nation fame did some investigative work and went over the play-by-play to see if there was any evidence to the idea of the makeup call being made. He found that Patrick Patterson was whistled for two fouls within 40 seconds of the alleged makeup promise.
I would love to see this brought to debate in a courtroom.
I haven't been openly rooting against the Nets but I have been watching for the outcomes of their games. They just won their 5th straight, including 2 without DWill, by beating the Celtics last night. They still have a just a .2% chance of making the playoffs according to Hollinger's odds, but each win worsens our chances come this summer. Right now it would be the 7th pick but with more wins it could go up to 10.
OGTime (I'm sticking with it) will be doing a live chat today on ESPN in time for the NCAA tourney. He's teaming up with Subway (no OG?) for a charity:
Hayward is teaming with Subway in "Meatball Madness." To honor his Butler team making the title game as a No. 5 seed last year, if a No. 5 seed wins it all this year, Hayward has pledged to buy the $5 footlong meatball pepperoni sub for 5,555 fans.
If he does have to buy 5,555 subs, that comes out to $27,775. That's about 4,000 endless bread stick and salad combos.
Chat starts at 1:45 MDT.
Tuesday open poll... If the Jazz address only one issue this offseason, it should be...
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3 point shooters
the rest of the issues have potential to improve with time together and a summer off for Corbin to organize how he wants to do defense and getting players used to their roles to build chemistry
but we do need shooters.
Ya, I agree
3 point shooting is our biggest need. I would even narrow it down to say it needs to be at the SG position.
Follow me on twitter @JD23UT
3 point shooting and defending
can that count as one area?
by Evans Almighty on Mar 15, 2011 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions
One good shooting guard !
We could really use an all around 2 guard with a decent outside shot and reasonable D! (insert sad comment here about missing OMSW ) Question is, will they end up playing a combination of a rookie and CJ, or maybe pull off a trade to get a legitimate starter ? I like CJ, but he does have off nights.
insert sad comment here about missing OMSW
Upon reading Evans Almighty’s comment, I immediately thought, “hmm, I swear we used to have someone who fit that bill.” Stupid Blazers.
"I want to live up to her expectations. I want our democracy to be as good as Christina imagined it."
Laziness prompted me to finally join Twitter: @shandonfan
I'd say DEFENDING the three is a bigger priority.
Our lack of perimeter D has killed us much more often than not being able to sink shots from the perimeter ourselves.
Baseball is the only place in life where a sacrifice is really appreciated.
"Shoot baskets, not people." -AK
this
but if we can get someone that can make & defend 3s, like Raja used to be able to do, that’d be like a gravy train with biscuit wheels.
Its not so much that we need lots of scoring from 3, just options!
If we don’t have ANY outside threat, then the other team can just clog up the middle and double Jefferson all night. ( did you notice that in the 4th last night ?) More double teams and clogging the middle leads to more turnovers leads to more fast break points for the other team. ( which is not really the fault of our defense )
With no outside shooters, we become waaay to predictable. Nobody can drive the middle, we cant break a zone, we cant make interior passes……next thing you know its all steals on our end, and slam dunks or wide open looks on their end.
As they say, the best defense is a good offense.
The D Will trade gets lot iffy-ier if our pick is worse than #6
But it seems that this draft, while lacking in a sure fire star, does have a fairly deep crop of guys who should be solid role players. Is that accurate?
Yeah, that's what scouts seem to be saying about the draft.
Still plenty of solid players available – even bad drafts produce good players. Favors has real star potential as well, so a bad draft doesn’t necessarily make it a bad trade.
Hopefully
Corbin is dedicated to getting the best 5 out their starting and not bowing down to the veterans just because.
Sloan was bad enough not letting the young guys play much.
"Nobody scares us," Dion Gales said. "Where I’m from, it ain’t how big or small a man is, it’s the size of the fight in them.
"I’ll be doggone if I let another man beat me, that’s just my attitude. I’m not scared of another man."
by Matt_Grbac on Mar 15, 2011 11:16 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
#3
I think the pick is going to end up 9 or 10, since Indiana hasn’t fallen apart like some local beat guys were predicting.
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True, but they just won @NY
Seems like they must have pulled back together.
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I still have hope
that our pick becomes a top 3 pick
by Evans Almighty on Mar 15, 2011 12:45 PM MDT reply actions
SG!!!
I don’t know what else could possibly make any Jazz fan happier than upgrading our 2 guard. Bell needs to pull a Harpring and retire early, I like CJ better as a 3 with AK coming off the bench, so that leaves us with a 2 guard. If we could package a draft pick with Price or Memo for a decent SG, I would have much more confidence in this team.
Looking at our frontcourt however, we could potentially have one of the deepest if Memo is ever able to play again. Favors and Jefferson starting with Millsap and Memo coming off the bench? That’s an unbelievable proposition.
We may pull off a trade to get there too !
With so many picks coming and so many rookies to develop already, I would not be surprised at all to see them make a trade to move up in the draft, or get a veteran.
Anyone know the prognosis on Harris?
Please tell me he didn’t pull a hamstring in the same way that Boozer pulls hamstings, ie out for the remainder of the century.
I think CJ is the Jazz SG of the future...
But that doesn’t mean he’s a shooter. He’s been completely mislabeled as a shooter, mostly because he takes so many bad jump shots, but in reality he’s more like KD in the fact that he’s much better as an athletic slasher than he is as a perimeter shooter. Ty Corbin has said that he and the entire coaching staff believe CJ can be a 20+ ppg player once he develops. I completely agree with them, as we’ve seen several games like last night where he’s able to go off for 20 or more points when he curbs his itch to take jump shots and takes it to the rim. Once CJ is able to do that on a consistent basis he’ll be more valuable than any “pure” shooter.
also I'm not saying the Jazz don't need a shooter
They definitely need someone who can spread the defense, but they need to find someone that can do that off the bench and allow CJ to get the minutes he needs to develop.
Man... Raja is not happy.
Good move to start CJ though. Should have been made at the beginning of the season.
by davidthecomposer on Mar 15, 2011 2:19 PM MDT reply actions
Is he
complaining somewhere that I haven’t seen?
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
I just read his comments that some media posted on twitter
by davidthecomposer on Mar 15, 2011 2:31 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't think Raja being disgruntled will really disrupt team chemistry... especially since he insinuated they already don't have any
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Everytime I hear Raja talk
I think, man, that guy is professional. I don’t mean that in a good way. I like him and generally appreciate professionalism from professional athletes, but for the great ones, basketball is more than their profession. It’s their passion. That’s what’s missing when Raja talks.
Since the need for shooters has been brought up,
I’ll go in a different direction. We need a new defensive scheme. It’s obvious our rotations etc have been a problem for a few years. I think we just need to blow it up and start over from scratch. Maybe it’s too complex? Maybe it’s too simple? I dunno but I just don’t think it’s a perrsonel problem at this point, maybe it’s the scheme.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Yes, we almost need to bring in a strong defensive minded assistant
Looking to future years, Favors will help shore up some of our defensive blemishes. I was extremely impressed with the way he guarded Elton Brand. But Favors can’t change alone the defensive makeup of a team the way Dwight Howard can. Defense needs to be a priority for this team.
+3 !
I have been wondering the same thing. I am sure they will do better after training camp either way, and having a normal number of assistant coaches should help. I think spending a lot of time on D, and/or bringing in a new guy to focus on D would be great.
If Raja is mad, let him leave
Too bad he wasnt ruining the Lakers right now…
Or maybe Phil Jackson would have done the right thing and let him become a veteran Adam Morrison (aka Bench Rotter)
The Orioles Suck!
Play FESS More!!!
I love men!
HEH!
#5 Coaching
No, I don’t want to replace the head coach. I want to replenish the bench with a couple guys as good as Ty Corbin and Phil Johnson were as assistant coaches.
Raja complaining pisses me off
Hes just mad because he sucks
The Orioles Suck!
Play FESS More!!!
I love men!
HEH!
He should be happy he gets any minutes
The Orioles Suck!
Play FESS More!!!
I love men!
HEH!
by bucimislover on Mar 15, 2011 7:03 PM MDT up reply actions
At first glance I thought the downbeat was The Smart CJ edition.
Anyway, I would love it if the smart CJ was starting games.
"He is STUPID but he knows that he is STUPID and that almost makes him smart."
I would love it if people would retire that phrase
It doesn’t apply anymore. It should be Shooting-well-from-the-outside CJ and Not-Making-his-outside-shots-CJ because that is what you really mean.
by davidthecomposer on Mar 16, 2011 9:43 AM MDT up reply actions
I think it is a fair term.
Smart CJ means that he is taking shots with his feet set and his body balanced and open rather than taking a stupid shot that is contested or off balanced with too much time left on the clock. There are such things as bad shots and Cj still takes them. Everybody on the team takes some.
But there are even bad shots that go in. Doesn’t make them good shots. Just ask AK. He seems to be the king.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
YEah but CJ doesn't take more than other players
So unless we are going to call players Dumb Devin, Dumb, Millsap etc then I just think it is kind of demeaning and unfair.
by davidthecomposer on Mar 16, 2011 9:57 PM MDT up reply actions
I disagree with that. Some players take more dumb shots than others.
Like I said, there are a few Jazz players that take bad shots. Ronnie Price is probably the worst, but there are players who are really disciplined in their shot selection. Maybe even to a fault. It’s a genuine skill in the NBA to be able to know when to shoot. Ronnie, Cj, AK struggle sometimes. Remember when AK shot that offbalance 3 pointer against someone like the Rockets last year when we were down 3, but he shot it with like 7 seconds left unexplicably? There are guys on the team who would never do that. Like Gordon Hayward. Millsap takes really good shots. That’s part of the reason he’s so efficient. Jefferson has really improved in this regard. He used to force shots, but now he’ll only shoot 1 or 2 shots he shouldn’t in a double team mostly. Okur is super selective with his shots too.
But we all make fun of Ak’s shot selection all the time and I know that Amar and I make fun of Ronnie Price for being one of the most unintelligent basketball players in the league. So the criticism isn’t exclusive to CJ.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Those other guys don't have a distinctively different "smart" side though.
That’s the beauty of smart CJ vs dumb CJ.
Although, I’ve gotta say that AK was taking very nice shots within the offense last night. Rhythm jumpers off of plays. So maybe there needs to be smart AK and dumb AK too.
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Meh. I've seen people use Smart and Dumb CJ
When it isn’t a bad shot. When he didn’t make a bad play, but just missed a shot. I agree though that he occasionally takes bad shots. Somebody on here obviously coined the term, and it has stuck with the faithful, which is fine I guess.
Again those other players do not have the moniker “smart AK” “Dumb AK”. To me that is a much different thing than calling a player out for a specific play in a game. "e.g “that was a dumb shot, CJ” Which I would be fine with in the event that it was actually true.
I disagree with the premise that CJ takes more dumb shots than most players, though using Millsap as an example wasn’t a great one because you are correct that he doesn’t take a ton of bad shots at all.
These are all players that I think take the same number (or more) of bad shots per shot taken -
AK – Always taking jump shots early in the posession while covered. Cj usually only takes early shots if he is open (this year).
Devin – Takes a ton of early 3’s. Forces drives sometimes and turns it over, forces bad jump shots off the dribble at times.
Watson – Takes too many 3’s, forces drives
Favors – sometimes gets the ball and just seems to not know what to do with it so he takes a tough shot. (he does make some of those, but still)
Price – enough said.
Big Al – Is doing better, but still takes some tough fadeaways (I would guess at least 2-3 per game) from 15+ feet. Usually happens when he doesn’t get good enough position or forgets that he has teammates.
Raja – If he hasn’t taken a shot in a while he will just let one go off of the down screen even if he isn’t open. Takes WAY too many transition 3’s like he is still in Phoenix.
Fesenko – When he gets the ball in the post he is kind of a black hole. Kind of a small sample size so I would say this one is debatable.
Now some of these players don’t take as many shots as CJ, and don’t have the same reputation to overcome, but I see bad, quick, tough shots by all these guys every game and they don’t get a special pejorative nickname for it. I’m not necessarily calling Clark out on this as he is obviously on of the more thoughtful posters.
I guess the thing that bothers me the most about it is that CJ is one of the smarter (basketball wise) players on the team. He has great court vision, runs the offense well, plays smart D, makes an effort to help with rebounding, and is one of only 2 players (maybe 3 as Hayward develops) that can create for others. Just because he takes some slightly off balance shots occasionally doesn’t mean he is being dumb. He can make that shot.
I’m not sure but I’m guessing this is going to be long… sorry guys.
by davidthecomposer on Mar 17, 2011 9:02 AM MDT up reply actions
TJ already said that Jimmer wants to go to NY
And we all know that when guys want to go to NY, they find a way.
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I find the thought of Jimmer on that NY team to be completely hilarious
What New York definitely needs right now is another pure scorer who needs the ball to be effective and doesn’t play a lick of defense.
"I want to live up to her expectations. I want our democracy to be as good as Christina imagined it."
Laziness prompted me to finally join Twitter: @shandonfan
Although... they could probably use a guy off the bench.
Not a fit for the starting lineup, but a good guy to push the ball on the break for the second unit.
I was mostly being sarcastic though. I do think Jimmer’s better suited for an up-tempo, open style of play, but to come out and say you want to go to New York… I think that’s a situation where you’d better watch what you wish for. NY media and fans can be pretty brutal. That’s about the last place I’d want to go if I were a guy that scouts seemed to be pretty torn about making it in the NBA.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Great point about the NY media
That could absolutely be brutal for him. Seems to me like he’s be a good fit in Phoenix, actually. They’ve got that up-tempo style, he’d get to learn from Nash, it’s a more laid back environment, and since Nash is there, he wouldn’t be expected to start immediately and carry a team, which would allow him and the team to figure out what his role should be in the big leagues.
Also, it’s bad enough that current players under contract are conspiring to go to NY, now we have draft entrants who aren’t even guaranteed lottery picks trying to dictate where they go? Ick.
"I want to live up to her expectations. I want our democracy to be as good as Christina imagined it."
Laziness prompted me to finally join Twitter: @shandonfan
Well, Jimmer is from NY....
state, he fits Mr. Pringles’s style of play, he wouldn’t stand out as a defensive liability, he could chuck shots at will, he’d be able to back up & perhaps even learn a few things from Billups, so I think that’d be as good as any place for him to end up.
If Phoenix didn’t already have Nash & Brooks, that’d be a good system for him too.
New York may be a good fit for him, I'm just totally unconvinced that he'd be a good fit for NY
If they’re trying to build a championship-caliber team, adding a guy who is similar in style to Carmelo and Amare (shot-chucker, poor defender, etc.) doesn’t seem like it would help them at all. They need specialists now — guys who can defend, pass well, do the dirty work, etc., and based on what I’ve seen, Jimmer isn’t that type of guy. I also think if he’s going to model his game after anyone in the league, it should be Nash. Billups would probably be a good mentor , but they have completely different styles.
"I want to live up to her expectations. I want our democracy to be as good as Christina imagined it."
Laziness prompted me to finally join Twitter: @shandonfan
Its probably his favorite team.
He is from New York.
And your right no one on that team plays defense. He would be a bad fit there
RIP Pita Kapetaua
I realize that it's probably his favorite team
But it’s bad for your image to proclaim that your overall #1 choice would be a particular team. Makes it feel like you’re “settling” with whichever team you end up going to.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Also, I really doubt Jimmer would have said it. Still, TJ is like his spokesman... his Worldwide Wes if you will, so he has to watch what he says.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Raja interview with David Locke yesterday
Raja was getting killed in the game thread Monday night against Philly. Locke had an insightful interview with Bell yesterday after he admitted to be ‘bothered’ in how things were handled Monday with his not starting.
The interview is enlightening for a few reasons:
1) Shows how competitive Raja is (a good thing)
2) He has some VERY interesting insights as to the Jazz offense this year
3) It gave me a better understanding as to why Corbin hasn’t had him coming off the bench earlier (Kobe was courting Raja a year ago to come off the bench to replace Kobe . . . now he is looking at doing the same for CJ — that is a professional hit no matter how you look at it).
I posted the link as a Fanshot here — and though we’re not big on Locke around here — hope it gets re-posted for further discussion. Lot of interesting things said in that interview . . .
yojimbo is jazzed
Check out today's DB
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