Examining the PF Situation
Jazz Power Forward Depth Chart
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April 2010 |
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October 2010 |
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April 2011 |
Al Jefferson |
Paul Millsap |
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Currently Under Contract |
Al Jefferson |
Paul Millsap |
Derrick Favors |
I believe it was Flannery O'Connor who famously noted that a good big man is hard to find. The Jazz, then, are somewhat unusual insofar as four out of their five best players are most effective at the power forward position. Too many big men sounds like a nice problem to have, but in fact it's genuinely unclear how the Jazz should order their depth chart much less apportion their minutes.
The best way to start sorting out this puzzle is to take a close look at each of the pieces. I already broke down the situations of Andrei Kirilenko and Jeremy Evans in my post about small forwards. Even though Mehmet Okur and may be more naturally suited to be a PF, he has played center almost exclusively in his Jazz career; consequently, I'll save him for my forthcoming post about centers. That means that for today's purposes we might as well start with...
Paul Millsap
If you have a heart in your chest, I hope it goes out to Paul Millsap. After four years of serving as Carlos Boozer's understudy, this season was supposed to be Paul's turn to shine. He came into the league as an energy and hustle player, and year after year he has worked his tail off to round out his game. This is most pronounced on offense, where he blossomed from a guy who was only good for dump-offs and put-backs to an offensive weapon who can post up, drive to the basket, and even knock down jumpshots out to three point range. On defense his big weakness is his lack of size, and yet Sap has done absolutely nothing to increase his height. Perhaps this means that deep down inside he is a selfish glory-boy who only cares about his own offensive statistics.
Okay, obviously nothing could be farther from the truth. Paul has done everything asked of him and more. In spite of that, I think the Jazz need to trade him. Now let's be clear: Millsap is my favorite player on the Jazz and the embodiment of everything the Jazz brand has represented for the last 30 years. Like Charlie Sheen, however, I am passionate about winning.
via flickr user: Dinur
Given the present composition of Utah's roster, Millsap does not add a particular lot of value. At the power forward, any minutes he plays will come at the expense of other highly effective players like Al Jefferson and Derrick Favors. For this reason, the team is exploring the possibility of playing Paul as a small forward. But it's far from clear to me that this increases his value to the team. Playing out of position and being asked defensively to stick to his his man on the perimeter will only go against the very things that make him effective.
Right now the Jazz are like a homeowner who doesn't have a good shelf for storing his books and Paul Millsap is like a dryer. If they decide to just use the dryer as their bookshelf, it's true that they will have a place for their books and they will be able to realize all the benefits of using a clothesline to air dry their laundry. But even if they're really sold on the clothesline idea, it still makes a whole lot more sense to throw the dryer up on Craig's List and throw the proceeds towards the purchase of some bona fide bookshelves. That makes a heck of a lot more sense than filling up your dryer with paperbacks and declaring it a bookshelf. Perhaps it would be possible to hide Paul at the SF, but the bottom line is that he is a PF and is always going to be at his best when he can put his body into someone and go to work.
Fans (and sometimes GMs) fall into two basic traps when thinking about making trades. The first is to drastically overvalue the players they've come to know and love- which means that their trade ideas tend to be incredibly lopsided in their teams' favor. The other trap is to only talk about trading players who have no value. Sure, you could spare an end of the bench player... but it's not like other teams have much use for him either. I hope that in suggesting the Jazz move Sap I am steering clear of these fallacies. I believe that he is an effective player and has real value both to the Jazz and to other teams around the league. So long as the Jazz have a logjam at the PF spot, though, his value to other teams will be higher than his value to Utah. Sometimes when you really love someone you need to let him go. Even though we still get that lump in our throat when he looks us in the eye, the fact of the matter is that he deserves better than we in Jazz nation can offer him at this point.
Al Jefferson
In his seven year NBA career, Al has never played for a playoff team. One possible explanation for this is that he has never been surrounded with especially talented teammates. A quick glance at some old Minnesota Timberwolves rosters lend some definite credence to this idea. Another possible explanation is that Al's game is not conducive to making his team better.
Though he made significant strides over the course if this past season, no one would mistake Jefferson for a defensive menace. On the ball, he can be effective against both forwards and centers (even if they are taller than him) so long as they are not fleet of foot. His lack of speed hurts him not only in one on one matchups; it also hinders him from making necessary defensive rotations and presumably serves as his primary motivation for not even trying to defend the pick and roll.
via flickr user: Dinur
Even as Al became a better man-to-man defender, his biggest progress this past season came on the other end of the court. Though he continues to monopolize the basketball for unseemly portions of the shot clock, he has learned to feed cutters effectively and to work the high-low game with Millsap. Some of this growth simply derives from an increased comprehension of the Jazz's intricate offense; much of it, though, reflects genuine growth as a player.
Jefferson is Utah's highest paid player and one of the most deadly low post threats in the league. After just one season as a disciple of Utah Jazz basketball, he is already playing better than he ever has and looking less and less like someone who could have been responsible for the shortcomings of his previous teams. Even though he is still a defensive liability, he is nonetheless the centerpiece of the Jazz until the next generation grows into athletic maturity. As such, we should expect him to play long minutes at the power forward position, even if that forces the team to move to center...
Derrick Favors
Derrick belongs to a class of players like Al Horford, Chris Bosh, and Kevin Garnett who best belong at the power forward position next to a physical defensive center, but who see extended duty at center themselves because their teams don't have the option of pairing them with a bruiser at all times. Not only that, but Favors has the sheer talent to develop into a player of the caliber of those other names. In fact, if he had been born a year younger he likely would be considered a co-favorite to be the first overall pick in this year's draft.
When talking about Derrick, it's hard to avoid painting with broad strokes. He only played 22 games for the Jazz and only averaged 20 minutes in those games. In moments, he has shown the athleticism and defensive presence that make scouts drool. In other moments, he has shown very little because his game lacks the sort of polish that would enable him to consistently capitalize on his many gifts. Some players like Darko Milicic and Tyrus Thomas have shown similar flashes of brilliance without yet managing to put it all together. Others with much more famous names have started with raw potential and blossomed into elite players. Thankfully, there is good reason to hope he will turn into a franchise guy.
Being in Utah should be wonderful for Derrick's development. He will have the support of a passionate but patient fanbase, the full backing of the even-more-patient Jazz organization, and the opportunity to learn alongside other big men with the broadest possible range of skill sets. He is the future of the franchise. Even though nobody knows the day or the hour, we are are all waiting for the future to arrive.
All comments are the opinion of the commenter and not necessarily that of SLC Dunk or SB Nation.
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Do you think there is any possibility the Jazz could do a three way trade, wherein the Jazz trade Millsap and either Bell or CJ (after they exercise their team option on CJ) to Cleveland, Cleveland sends their LeBron James trade exception to the LA Clippers, and the LA Clippers send Chris Kaman to the Jazz?
by Fesenko for President on Apr 22, 2011 9:46 AM MDT reply actions
I think LAC could fetch a better price for Kaman
And Cleveland may not have explicit use for Millsap with Samardo Samuels, Jamison and Hickson on board.
Millsap and GJ for Kaman? How does that help us?
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Here's how Kaman would help
He’s a legit 7-foot C who shoots a lower FG% than Al, lower FT% than Al, rebounds less than Al, and blocks fewer shots than Al.
But hey, at least he’s 7 feet
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
In seriousness
When/if the Jazz make trades, it can’t be for guys like Chris Kaman. They need draft picks and young guys who are still getting better—not vets who are getting worse.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Yeah, Kaman really doesn't excite me
The only centers I would throw a lucrative trade offer to acquire are the obvious ones like Bogut, Howard and Noah, as well as guys like Gasol, Nene and Horford. Maybe Perkins. That’s it.
I’d trade a pick for Kaman. Maybe Bell or Evans. He’s relatively expensive and he’s not going to turn us into a tough defensive team in the paint like the 6 centers I mentioned could.
A team like the Blazers or Heat are the type of teams more likely to make high bid for Kaman and benefit from it. He’s just not what the Jazz need right now.
There is one other center I'd go after
And if I were in charge, I’d be willing to go after him hard: Greg Monroe on Detroit. And depending on how the draft lottery goes, I’d be willing to offer a pick + players for him, taking back crummy contracts, etc.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Jeff Foster for me. Monroe has been good, though. Detroit isn't giving him up for picks from this draft though.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Who? They aren't taking Millsap and picks. they don't need him. No interest in anyone other than Hayward or Favors.
Detroit wouldn’t even want Al Jefferson and picks for Monroe. We can’t acquire Monroe without parting with out untouchable rookies. Guaranteed.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
If the Jazz could trade Okur and $3 mil. cash to Charlotte for Stephen Jackson; if the Jazz could also do a three way trade wherein the Jazz trade Millsap and Bell to Cleveland, Cleveland sends its trade exception to LA Clippers and LA Clippers send Chris Kaman to the Jazz; if the Jazz could re-sign Miles, Watson, Kirilenko and Fesenko; and if the Jazz could draft Bismack Biyombo with their 6th pick and Fredette or Walker with their 12th pick, the team could look like this next year:
PG: Harris Watson Fredette/Walker
SG: Hayward Miles (or vice versa)
SF: Jackson Kirilenko (with either Jackson or Kirilenko starting at SF) Evans
PF: Jefferson Favors Biyombo
C: Kaman Fesenko
by Fesenko for President on Apr 22, 2011 9:57 AM MDT reply actions
You're really determined to get Captain Jack, aren't you?
The three-way trade you propose wouldn’t work under the current CBA because it would put L.A. below the cap floor. Plus, I don’t think even Donald Sterling would trade Kaman for absolutely nothing when the team is already $5 million under the cap.
Kaman and Jackson?
You really really really want to get aging Vets who we’d have to pay alot. I don’t understand that train of thought at all.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
co-sign
Following the Utah Jazz from the bottom of South America!
by Jazzfan_in_Chile on Apr 23, 2011 7:07 AM MDT up reply actions
Jefferson should stay at center
Supposedly he is going to work on his lateral quickness this off season to improve his defense, but I think Jefferson is better at center. Even with an increase in speed, he can’t defend the athletic power forwards. He has long arms and has played good defense at times against the bigger centers and is obviously a beast on the low block. Paired with favors, his defense seems fine, and I believe he is the best option at center.
I didn’t know about the cap floor rule—doesn’t the team have until the trade deadline to get above the cap floor?
I was just recalling how Sterling dealt away Marcus Camby a couple of years ago for a “mess of pottage,” namely, some expiring contracts for players he didn’t even attempt to keep after their contracts expired.
Obviously, DeAndre Jordan is the center of the (near) future for the Clippers, who will probably be getting a fairly big raise this year as a restricted free agent. Also, there are some pretty good centers available as free agents this off-season, whom Sterling could probably get at a much cheaper price than Kaman to platoon at center with DeAndre Jordan. Kaman only averaged 26 minutes last year—a year after he was an all-star for heavens sake!
Maybe if the Jazz threw in the rights to Ante Tomic, Sterling would bite on the deal. It has been my observation over the years that Sterling always seems to be interested in replacing an experienced-but-more-expensive player with a younger, less experienced, less expensive player, if the younger player at least has some “potential.”
by Fesenko for President on Apr 22, 2011 12:12 PM MDT reply actions
I’m not all that high on Stephen Jackson, but he is still a very good player even at his advanced age; he fills a short-term need for the Jazz; and he might be available on a “salary dump” basis to the Jazz for no more than Okur’s expiring contract and some cash considerations.
Obviously, Okur is costing the Jazz a lot of money next year, is using up a roster spot, and probably will not be able to contribute much more than he did this past year. However, not many teams are going to be willing to give the Jazz much for Okur, even though he has a large expiring contract. Based on the Hornets’ behavior the past two years in “dumping” all of their good players just to reduce salary, they might just be amenable to such a trade. Jackson’s contract only extends for two more years, so if he does not work out well for the Jazz, the Jazz will have his contract for only one year longer than Okur’s contract. One the other hand, if he does work out, the Jazz might be a contender much quicker than anyone thought.
I would much rather get someone like Andre Iguodala for Okur and some change, but Philadelphia no longer looks like they want to trade him.
by Fesenko for President on Apr 22, 2011 12:27 PM MDT reply actions
Derrick Favors will be good, but in the same class as Kevin Garnett?
I doubt that. He can be as good defensively as Bosh is offensively. Al Horford, however is a good match of what Favors will be in terms of quality. But Garnett? That’s a stretch. I welcome a rebuttal on why you feel he’ll be as good as Garnett; I certainly would not be opposed to this.
We just don't know
Somebody took a look at Favors Stats from his Rookie year and compared them with other big men and I believe that they were favorable (this was per 36 minutes) defensive numbers.
In some way I think he could be better than Garnett. He has a body very similar to Dwight Howard, while Garnett has worked his body to become at least durable. Garnett probably has the longer reach, but Favors reach is pretty ridiculous.
Favors has more athleticism than Garnett in my opinion, and is much stronger even right now. Howard is really only 6’11" so I don’t see why Favors couldn’t be somewhere in his realm defensively with more work.
He has great instincts defensively. As he learns how to play the NBA game without fouling I can see him becoming one of the most dominant defensive players in the game every year.
by davidthecomposer on Apr 22, 2011 2:27 PM MDT up reply actions
I've compared Favor's per 36 #s to Horford
And he compared very nicely. Eerily similar, actually. Even down to height and weight. The only difference between the two is Favors is listed at a pound heavier.
Howard is really only 6’11" so I don’t see why Favors couldn’t be somewhere in his realm defensively with more work.
That’s true. Howard isn’t overpowering in height. I suspect defensively Favors will land in the range of a Joakim Noah or poor man’s Howard. Offensively though I don’t think he’ll ever get to Garnett’s or Bosh’s ability—that’s where the Horford comparison, to me, proves more apt.
I was only talking about defense when I was comparing
I’m not sure he will just be a poor man’s Howard, but he would have to really blossom.
His measurements that lead me to believe he will be more like Howard than Horford -
Standing reach Wingspan Height (shoes)
Howard – 9’3.5" 7’4.5" 6’10.25"
Favors – 9’2" 7’4 6’10.25"
Horford – 8’11 7’0.5" 6’9.75"
See what I am saying is that Favors has a body and a build much more like Dwight Howard than Al Horford. I don’t think that we realize how long he is. That is why I see his defensive ceiling as somewhere near Dwight howard level. I think he can be much better than Horford.
Now offensively that is a whole different ball-game. He has some skills, but who knows if he will develop that into some kind of high impact consistency.
I would kind of compare him to Noah except that he is much more athletic so that is why I see it as Dwight Howard.
by davidthecomposer on Apr 22, 2011 9:47 PM MDT up reply actions
Oh and maybe some of you are thinking
what 3 inches (or 3.5 inches) in reach and wingspan? so what… well 3 inches is a HUGE amount of difference when we are talking about NBA bigs.
by davidthecomposer on Apr 22, 2011 9:48 PM MDT up reply actions
I can certainly appreciate what those extra 3 adn 3.5 inches offer
I never realized that Favors’ measured so much longer than Horford-come to think of it, that could be why it’s Collins, not Horford, that’s known as the Howard stopper in that team matchup.
At any rate, Favors has the athleticism and length to be a very, very special player.
To be honest
I wasn’t 100% sure until I checked for myself, but It just seemed like he towers over players in games. Here’s hoping that he becomes dominant (whatever that ends up being) sooner rather than later.
by davidthecomposer on Apr 23, 2011 1:15 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree that KG is a stretch.
He represents the absolute best case scenario of what Favors can become. I don’t expect him to make it all the way there; I expect him to make it to the Bosh and Horford level. But if we want to talk about Derrick’s ceiling, then I think we have to talk about Garnett.
In responding to Jeffersap, it’s true that LAC could fetch a better price for Kaman, but historically that has not been what Donald Sterling is about. He never seems to want to take back equal contracts in most of the trades he does. Rather, he usually seems to want to save salary and get younger, cheaper players to replace more experienced, expensive players. However, the past five years or so, Sterling has actually made an attempt to build a competitive team somewhat, rather than just draft young talented players and then let them go when he would have been forced to pay them. However, Kaman no longer seems to be on Sterling’s “keeper” list anymore, so who knows what Sterling might do.
As for Cleveland, they just need to get some value for their trade exception before it expires. They can always do further trades, once they get some assets in exchange for their trade exception. The past year or so, it seems that most teams have just been “eating” their trade exceptions, and not getting anything in return. Therefore, kudos to Kevin O’Connor for actually getting some real value for the Jazz’s Carlos Boozer trade exception. Cleveland may do the trade just to get some value before the trade exception expires—and almost anyone is better than some of the players they have now.
by Fesenko for President on Apr 22, 2011 12:53 PM MDT reply actions
If you want to reply to him
you should really click on the reply button at the bottom of his comment, so that it’s easier for everyone to follow the conversation.
Favors no-step max vertical reach (the reach while jumping from a stand still) is 11''-9.5
That’s from the Pre-Draft combine. In the ten odd years they have taken records, the only big men with a higher reach are: Howard (11"10), Oden (12"0) and Tyrus Thomas (11"10).
Higher then big’s: Amare, Noah, Aldridge, Bogut, etc.
Oh, and Favors could bench his weight twice as much as Howard. He will probably gain 20lbs of muscle in the upcoming years.
Favors also has a great team-defensive understanding. He makes great rotations, and plays the P/R great.
Favors was the youngest player in the NBA last year.
Strangely for a fan base, a think Jazz fans are underestimating how good this kid can be. He will be a game changer on defense. He will be perennially average over 20&10 by his fourth season at the latest. The Jazz need to, and probably will, have a three-year plan to put the right pieces next to him on the front-court.
Paul and Al have two more years on their contracts.
In three years, I would really doubt either would be starting next to Favors. Unless Al completely buys into primarily being a defense and rebounder specialist, which is doubtful. Paul could be a very valuable sixth-man at that point, but will he want to be?
If the front office doesn’t think Al will become someone else, or that Paul will accept a sixth-man role, they both probably should be traded. I actually do see Paul accepting that, though. So that leaves Al. Al’s value is pretty high right now. I do think now is the time to trade him.
I don't think Kaman is an upgrade to Al at all.
The draft this year is actually high on long bigs who might be able to grow with Favors. Strangely all Euro’s.
I would love to trade up for Irving, first and foremost…. but I think that is doubtful. It is hard to get into the #1 spot.
The best player available at the #6 I think will be Alec Burks, and I think you have to take the best player there. However, I think most of the best bigs will be gone by #12.
So maybe one strategy would be to trade Al to move up and get a young big to grow with Favors. For example, Cleveland could trade their #8 for Al. (Cle has two picks, a trade exception, and could use Al). Or maybe Tor or Wash. Then we would be in position to pick up Vesely, Bismarck, or Valancionus. Each being very long, defensive oriented bigs with a super high motor. All a few years away, but now is the time to plan.
Get more length. Set the foundation to be a defensive juggernaut of a team. Save $30 million. That’s what I would do.
Why not Paul
Everybody agrees that we should trade Paul Milsap and put Al at Center with Favors at Power Forward. But why is Paul the one to trade? Why not trade Al, put Favors at Center, and Paul at PF.
Somebody said a couple of weeks ago that a team like Orlando would love to get Paul Milsap to go along side Dwight Howard. They said that Howard would make up for Paul’s defensive deficiencies. If Favors compares favorably to Howard, then why not Milsap along side of him?
Why would it work with the Magic and not us? Couldn’t we get a great trade from Al Jefferson?
Milsap is a leader that leads with hard work and improvement.
Please let me know what you think?
I disagree with this thinking.
First of all, I don’t think teams are lining up to trade great pieces for Paul Millsap.
We all heard of the Suns being really interested in Millsap and they wanted to trade Robin Lopez and Mickael Pietrus. Is that good value? I don’t think it makes us any better in the short or the long term. Others may disagree.
But I think there are teams out there who are lacking height, like the Jazz were, and who would value Jefferson as much or more than Paul Millsap. And trading Al Jefferson instead of Millsap will allow the Jazz to save more money in a deal and when a team is in the position the Jazz are in, cap space and picks are more important than probably any player the Jazz could fetch for either Paul or Jefferson.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
I would make that Suns trade.
Exchange a PF for a bruising center and a 3-and-D sub? Yes, please. Millsap is definitely by far the best of the three players, but those are two reasonable pieces for which to move him.
Do you mean this bruising center? I'm joking by the way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdXgTcA0pAM
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Guys. I didn't create another account and rename it JoeBountiful. I promise. I agree with you Joe. Wholeheartedly. Even though Paul's best role may be coming off the bench, which he also can't do if you trade him.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.



























