Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Blake Griffin Slam Dunks: NBA Jam Style

The #3 pick and the #12 pick are not a zero-sum Point Guard game

You may or may not remember, years ago, where Deron Williams was interviewed by local (for you, not me) sports radio and the host of the show identified that the young point guard lived in a zero-sum world. I’m sure all of you understand the meaning, even if you didn’t spend time in college studying ‘game theory’. As always, Wikipedia saves the day:

"…a zero-sum game is a mathematical representation of a situation in which a participant’s gain or loss is exactly balanced by the losses or gains of the other participant(s)," (Wikipedia, 2011 b, ¶ 1)

In effect, all of the potential winnings and losses add up to zero; hence, zero-sum. In order for Deron Williams to ‘win’ something the person or people he was playing against had to lose.

In order for him to start all the other potential PGs had to be behind him. In order for him to handle the ball, all the other players had to lose the right to handle the ball. (See: Andrei Kirilenko, our erstwhile point-forward) Possibly even worse was that in order for him to gain primacy and be able to dominate the ball and dictate which plays are being run those around him (even Hall of Fame coaches) may have had to relinquish some of their right to do so as well. This is, of course, unfairly painting the picture that Deron Williams wasn’t a leader and a good team mate. He was both of those things. However, he also was a guy who existed in a zero-sum Point guard world. Luckily for him, the vast majority of our offensive plays for the past 25 years have fed into that one-ball handler doctrine.

The one-ball handler doctrine is being used less and less around the league, and rumors suggest that Tyrone Corbin is planning on expanding (or unearthing) some more two-ball handler sets. New coach. New team. New era. It makes sense, now more than ever, when half of the Conference championship teams (and all of the NBA championship teams) run those offenses. Alas, this is not the post on that doctrine shift – but if you like to do homework you can check up on the shift from this to this. This is the post talking about why this draft, where we have the chance to pick up two of the top four PGs, shouldn’t be a draft we close our mind two picking up necessary redundancy.

After all, you know that Brandon Knight or Kemba Walker sharing PG duties with Jimmer Fredette >>> Earl Watson (free agent) sharing PG duties with Ronnie Price (free agent), right?

Star-divide

One-Ball Handler Doctrine

This doctrine really works out well when you have one guy who is good enough to do everything mostly by himself. Magic Johnson was one such guy. Isiah Thomas was one such guy. Nate Archibald was one such guy. Of course, John Stockton was one as well. Today we have Steve Nash and a slew of shoot first point guards (Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, etc) adopting this doctrine to heart. Chris Paul and Deron Williams probably displayed the best modern examples of pass-first point guards running one-ball handler sets. The obvious benefit is that if the guy with the ball in his hand is All-NBA level then it’s hard to find faults with the system. The obvious, or absurd, criticism is that at times it can get way too "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer" for some teams that aren’t well balanced. It’s predictable. And if you run a predictable set of plays (to be fair, the Flex offense is not listed as one of the more dynamic sets – but it works because it is simple), in the playoffs it can be dismantled by a well prepared team. More than anything else, though, is that this doctrine limits the creativity and decision making skills of your team mates. I’m biased here, but there’s no greater example of this than watching Andrei Kirilenko’s games when Deron Williams is injured. In those games his responsibility vis a vis the ball handling is greater and he is almost always up to the challenge. We don’t need to re-create the frustrated forward wheel all over again by handcuffing Gordon Hayward to a ball dominating PG.

Two-Ball Handler Doctrine

This is, honestly, the offense the Jazz should have run way more with John Stockton and Jeff Hornacek (and with Howard Eisley and Jeff Hornacek). The year before we traded for Jeff he averaged 6.9 assists per game. He was a capable ball handler, heck, he was the starting SG and backup PG in Phoenix all those years. This doctrine shares the ball (doesn’t have to be 50/50, but it’s greater than 90/10) between a number of offensive players. The roles change depending on the play called and the game time situation. This increases defensive uncertainty – especially since so many systematic ruses can be built into the play formation. If the Jazz were running those plays back in the Finals days then the Jazz could ALWAYS have attacked whomever was defended by Steve Kerr, instead of having one of our under 6’5 guards try to find a passing angle around Ron Harper or Scottie Pippen. I don’t have a time machine though, so I’m not going to get too into it.

If the one-ball handler doctrine works best in a zero-sum game then I think it’s fair to suggest that the two-ball handler doctrine is more like the Nash equilibrium. In this the players all use their best resources and knowledge of each other player in order to win. To go back to the previous era of Jazz basketball, the Nash equilibrium is one where Deron is aware of his teammate’s capabilities (strategies for winning) and doesn’t take anything away from them. After all, our playbook is supposed to be a Coordination game – where "all parties can realize mutual gains, but only by making mutually consistent decisions," (Wikipedia, 2011 a, ¶ 1). That would be like Deron recognizing that Andrei’s height and placement on the court can get a pass to a guy faster than Deron waving Andrei out of that area and dribbling there himself to then try to attempt a pass at a lower passing angle. Alas, that was a world too beautiful to exist . . .

Dallas runs a great multiple ball handler set of plays. Sometimes Jason Kidd is the point man. Sometimes it is Jason Terry. Sometimes it is J.J. Barea. Depending on the play and the defense the primary can shift in the middle of a possession. This is a quantum leap ahead of the stuff we were running this same year where everyone knew who would be passing to whom. A move to this type of offense is only possible when you actually a) change the ball handling doctrine, and b) get the players who can share the ball this way.

History is the teacher for tomorrow’s victories

The Jazz are a good team. They are also not a dumb team. While moving Deron to the SG at times was still a one-ball handler set (Earl became the ‘Deron’, and Deron became the ‘CJ’ on those plays) the Swarm showed that the two-ball handler theorem was something to invest into. Next year we could have none of the guys who were part of SWARM prime (Earl Watson, Ronnie Price, C.J. Miles, Francisco Elson, and Kyrylo Fesenko) – but I think that unit (scroll down to #16 here) was more like a technology demonstrator than an actual unit to develop. In the Swarm unit everyone was a threat because the defense had never seen the Jazz run anything like that before. C.J. Miles became the focus of the defense's energies – while defenses against the Jazz were previously focused on corralling our point guard. Adding another point guard only confused the defenses further because they weren’t always performing the same role on back to back plays. Furthermore, that unit really had a strong Nash Equilibrium thing going for it – Francisco was great at shooting midrange jumpers but he wasn’t a banger. Fes can only bang. Fes drew players on him despite his inabilities to box out. Fran could box out. They somehow made it work; with one another ‘winning’ in the way they knew how, without hurting their team mate. This was seen even more plainly between our two guards: Earl and Ronnie. Earl could run an offense, while Ronnie could not. Ronnie can drive on guys and draw defenders, while Earl rarely did that with any success. Earl could make the long pass. Ronnie could make the spot up jumper.

I will always look back at the stats and see all the support in the world for the SWARM theorem. It worked. And it worked because everyone worked together while the defense had no clue what the hell was happening.

Upgrades

Anyone who has had the sheer JOY of buying any piece of technology since the 1970’s knows that no matter how happy you are with what you have, there’s someone out there who wants to convince you that you should be unhappy and you should upgrade immediately. Sometimes it works out – your phone contract is up shortly after the release of some new, cool, technology. Sometimes it doesn’t work out and you have to upgrade on the fly to replace something broken, and it’ll cost you an arm and a leg to replace. Right now some people love Enes Kanter – and I’ve watched all the same scouting vids, looked at his stats, his measurements, and read the reports. The problem with Kanter isn’t that he’s a big and we have a lot of them (that IS a problem though), the problem is that he’s not a painless upgrade. We have a guy inside who is a lifelong Jazz member and consummate garbage man / hero in Paul Millsap. We have a big who has all of the post moves in the world and can score on anyone in single coverage (watch the games vs Orlando again) – and he also dominated Pau Gasol on both ends of the court this year – in Al Jefferson. And we have LAST YEAR’S #3 Draft pick / high upside big in Derrick Favors.

Excuse the Socratic method here, but I do think that drafting Kanter to replace Favors is stupid. (No one said that we should remove Favors, but the Socratic method exhausts all possibilities including the dumb ones) Favors is obviously the better prospect. He’s also better at the same measurements that made Kanter seem like a Top 3 pick in the first place.


Too small? Click here for the full-sized version. (Opens in a new window!)

It’s really nice that in a group of 70 players over eight categories both of these guys rank in the top 35 players quite a bit: Favors 7 times and Kanter 6 times. Favors’ ordinal rank is 23.3, while Kanter clocks in at 28.3. What the bigger difference is; however, happens to be what they do well and how well do they do them. Enes is really good at being tall, heavy, and relatively quick. You don’t block a lot of shots with your forehead though, so being tall is not that big of a deal – especially when it’s only a 1" difference. Weight is another thing, a 15 pound difference is significant, especially coupled with the fact that Kanter appears more agile. But getting to a spot and getting to a spot and playing defense are two different animals. Unless Kanter is going to develop a mighty flop (like Anderson Varejao (flop) or Big Baby Glen Davis (???)) it’s not that helpful. Favors has big advantages in wingspan, no step vertical, and max reach. He may get to a spot after Kanter, but he’s more equipped to do something about the shot when he does get there. (Just google some of his help defense back in New Jersey for proof). This is just the measurements alone, but Favors has not only upside and measurements in his favor. He’s about the same age and isn’t a rookie. He seems to make a difference on defense. He’s more athletic. He’s not a great post up guy, but playing against Sap and Al Jeff all year long makes him learn faster than taking a year off of basketball like Kanter did. Clearly, if it’s between Kanter and Favors, Favors is the victor.

How about Kanter against Millsap, or Kanter against Big Al, or Kanter against Memo? All more painful upgrades than Kanter vs. a 2nd year player. Kanter’s bigger than Millsap, but Millsap is an energy guy who dominates on the glass. Sap also is clutch and able to shoot and dribble better – while adapting to life outside of the paint. Why outside? Because we have Big Al – who is a true paint scorer that we’ve sorely lacked for nearly a decade. Jettisoning either one of those guys is going to involve a critical reception – especially in favor of making room for a young guy who has no experience against other guys his size. Kanter looked great against American high school kids. He’s never played against guys his own size. The Jazz pulled the trigger on sending D-Will away, but they didn’t get a rookie in return to play PG. They replaced D-Will with a former All-Star PG in Devin Harris. Moving either Sap or Big Al for a rookie is not the same thing.

What about Kanter instead of Okur? This is sheer madness as their games are not the same. Yes, Memo can rebound well, and Kanter can hit the outside jumper – but Memo is lights out from outside and has had experience guarding guys like Yao Ming in single coverage in the playoffs, and held him to -3 ppg from his season average against the Jazz during that time. Kanter isn’t Memo no more than I’m Taye Diggs. I don’t know how that analogy works. I think Taye Diggs is a good looking man. . . what, what am I talking about here? Oh yes, Kanter isn’t an upgrade over any of our current potential rotation bigs. He may be in certain areas, but it’s not a great upgrade when you have to factor in the cost of doing something with the 'phone you already have'. Sap, Big Al and Memo all have money and years on their contracts. Drafting Kanter doesn’t automatically make PLAYING TIME for Kanter. There’s only 96 minutes a game at the PF and C spots. Even if you somehow get Millsap to play 15 at small forward, there still isn’t enough minutes to go around. You’re going to have to get rid of one of the four current guys ahead of Kanter on the depth chart. And those four guys deserve one healthy year together to better evaluate what we have there, and what could be. Can you imagine how amazing Big Al could be if Memo was out there drawing a big away from the paint? Or how many blocks Sap and Favors would get against other teams’ bench units? Don’t tell me the unknown of Kanter is a greater draw than actually using the guys we already have – guys you already love.

No need to read the fine print

You know what’s the opposite of costly upgrade? A free upgrade. These are pain free and are the best of a good situation. Here you get the best stuff at the best time and there are no strings attached. We’re planning on running more two-ball handler sets. Right now we have shoot first Devin Harris at the helm and two career backups in Earl Watson and Ronnie Price who are both free agents. Gordon Hayward and C.J. Miles both look to have the ball in their hands a bit more too, but they are starter material next season. We know that Jimmer Fredette is better than Ronnie Price. If you’re going to have a guy come off the bench and vacillate between PG and SG (and Jimmer is taller, has about the same wingspan and a much faster lane agility test than Ronnie) why not have Jimmer do it? He’s way better at passing than Ronnie. He’s way better at penetrating than Ronnie. And he’s way better at shooting (and making) threes than Ronnie. (Don’t even get me started on free throws) How easy and pain free would it be to replace a fan favorite back up point guard who went to a college in Utah by drafting Jimmer and letting Ronnie walk?

Similarly, steady but unspectacular Earl Watson can be replaced by (my pick) Brandon Knight. Knight kicks Earl’s butt on all the predraft stuff. He’s not an outstanding % shooter, so he’ll be forced to run the plays and get the ball to better scorers. (One of them will be sharing ball handling duties with him – in the upgraded Swarm, his name is Jimmer.) While Jimmer is a better penetrator, Knight is a better floor general. Using the Nash Equilibrium here is the key, as they can co-exist and thrive together. It’s not a zero sum game at all. Imagine how great Jason Terry and Jason Kidd would have been if they started off their careers with one another. That type of synergy can exist if the Jazz recognize that a) they are going to be changing ball handling doctrines and b) they are up for two pain free upgrades.

And if you put the theory into full practice, the Jazz should be carrying 4 dedicated PGs using this new doctrine (like how the Jazz used to carry 3 back in the 12 man roster days with the one-ball handler set and Stockton). That means you also re-sign Earl Watson (or even Kyle Weaver?) and have him lead the bench for the first 20 games while Knight learns. Then the next 62 is Knight/Fredette show. Of course, my idea is that this minimizes Raja Bell’s on court time – but hey, I can dream can’t I?

The future:

Next year’s draft is going to have a better slew of SFs (some all around ones, not just guys who are either athletes, defenders, or scorers). Also this time next year we’re going to know better who to move out of our four bigs. I’m willing to sacrifice Marshon Brooks in favor of getting Jimmer to appease a lot of people here (gotta remember that BPA is BPA now, not BPA in the future) – meet me half-way and recognize that drafting a PG at #3 isn’t a zero-sum game for drafting your guy at #12. After all, the new ball handling doctrine is no longer a zero-sum game. It’s a new era of Jazz basketball. One with more cooperating and success; which means more wins.

Comment 58 comments  |  5 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

I agree

with your logic Amar. Drafting Knight shouldn’t stop the Jazz from taking Jimmer at all if they feel Jimmer is BPA. I think Kanter and Favors will be a better match than you do, but I understand your logic…Great stuff this memorial day weekend. You are a writing monster.

by scrantonicity33 on May 30, 2011 8:02 PM MDT reply actions  

no work and no play make Amar something something . . .

About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

by AllThatJazzBasketball on May 30, 2011 8:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

and to be fair, Kanter and Favors COULD be awesome

but getting Kanter means removing stuff we already have. losing a Sap/Big Al/ or Memo >>> than losing an Earl Watson and Ronnie Price.

Just my two cents.

About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

by AllThatJazzBasketball on May 30, 2011 8:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

Interesting stuff as usual.

I’m with you on drafting Knight, and you certainly make a good case for Jimmer. However, if we do go with both Knight and Jimmer, it seems like the FO would face alot of pressure to play and groom Jimmer as our future PG, even though Knight will most likely be the better player and floor general. Hell, I can even see fans starting Jimmer chants if he doesn’t get enough playing time, and that would be bad for developing Knight. I think Jimmer’s local celebrity status will hurt the team more than it will help it (I can’t imagine it would feel good for any our current players and Knight to have this kid just come in and be LOVED without earning it in the NBA like they had to/will in Knights case). Just another reason I’m against Jimmer, in addittion to my loathing hatred of all things BYU, lol.

What would you think of drafting Knight, and playing him with Watson off the bench as the two ball handlers, and then having Harris and Hayward be our starting ball handlers? We could then switch up with combos of Harris/Knight, Watson/Harris, Knight/Hayward, Watson/Hayward. I also think Watson would be an excellent mentor for Knight in developing an all around game, especially in the rebounding department, which none of our guards except Watson excelled.

Also, as a side note, what did you go to school for? With how stat heavy your posts are, I’d guess statistics…

Thanks again for a great post!

Utah>*

by Bebop on May 30, 2011 8:15 PM MDT reply actions  

1) Primary ball handlers for starters (in my idea): Harris, Haywood, Miles in that order
Primary ball handlers for bench: Watson, Knight

We agree here complete.y

2) I started school mindlessly gunning for Premed (biology/psychology BSc. double — but i dropped one along the way).

About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

by AllThatJazzBasketball on May 30, 2011 8:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

I've been waiting for this post

I love it. It makes complete sense in my head and I can only hope that KOC and staff are thinking the same way.

I am not excited about drafting Kanter though KOC keeps talking highly of him. I like our bigs and Kanter does not seem ready to step in right away and do any better than Al, Paul or a healthy Memo and of course not Favors. I know I know Portland had Clyde Drexler and they passed on Jordan. .. but I believe Jordan was ready to be better than Drexler right then and there and always.

the idea of an upgraded SWARM with Watson/Knight and Jimmer gets me soooo excited!

by dianaallen on May 30, 2011 8:19 PM MDT reply actions  

If Enes Kanter is the Michael Jordan of Bigmen

I will get a new hobby. I know KOC is saying the right things as a close to his chest GM, and he’s been sneaky before, but I don’t see Kanter as having as great an upside as LAST years #3 pick bigman – Favors. I think the two of them would cannibalize each other’s development minutes.

About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

by AllThatJazzBasketball on May 30, 2011 8:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

The draft, even this year's 3rd pick, is about the future, not next season. If Kanter is the best player and he can be playing alongside Favors in 2-3 years, then he's the right pick.

You really can hurt your team if you don’t plan for the future when you draft guys. I think you are overvaluing all three of our bigs. Millsap, because he has struggled to rebound as effectively as Kanter will, Jefferson, because he isn’t really a good low post scorer, regardless of how many moves he has, and Okur, because he really may never play again. I think it is fair for the front office to just pretend that it is the case.

What happens when we miss the playoffs and get the 3rd pick in next year’s draft and the best player available is Marquis Teague? Do we pass on him because we drafted Knight this year? What if we get the number 1 pick next season? Do we pass on Anthony Davis because we already have Millsap and Jefferson and Favors? What if we draft Knight and Millsap breaks his leg in the preseason? You can only make decisions based on the information you have now and that best decision is to take the best player, regardless of position, if they are much better.

And the argument I take huge exception to is about knowing better in a year from now, how our bigs situation should play out as opposed to knowing now. Of course we will know more in a year, but we already know what we need to know now. Paul Millsap will still struggle to play man defense due to his size in a year and Al Jefferson will still be unable to play adequate team defense due to his inability to move his feet. And Favors will still need as much time in a year as he needs now. Nothing will be different.

The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.

by clarkpojo on May 30, 2011 8:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

The thing about adding a Kanter is really

You’re upgrading by subtraction. In that Kanter is good enough now to be an adequate fill in so that you can trade away a huge contract. The addition is in the subtraction of losing a massive contract like Jeffersons/Memos, or getting back good assets with Saps.

It’s not just about production, but also the money invested in the production.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on May 30, 2011 8:24 PM MDT reply actions  

this is a really great point

I think that Memo’s expiring is a great thing to keep onto though. And if we’re keeping memo we should keep the other three guys and see if any of them stick together. If not — next year can be the big overhaul. Losing out on Kanter isn’t going to doom the franchise financially when Memo’s $10.9 million comes off the books in 2011/2012.

About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

by AllThatJazzBasketball on May 30, 2011 8:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

it's not Favors, Millsap, or Jefferson that I'm interested it . . .

it’s Favors, Millsap, Jefferson, and Okur that matters to me.

Big Al was an inefficient scorer because he faced a lot of late doubles. With a healthy Memo drawing out defenses he’ll have more room to operate on defense. Also with Memo there, Memo can defend the other team’s better big (he had to do it all Carlos’ tenure here), limiting Al’s problems there.

Okur starting (but not playing starters minutes) takes the pressure off of Millsap and his frequently broken down body. He can concentrate by being the first big off the bench and return to the energy role.

Favors will enter his 2nd year (there’s historically a huge jump from 1st to 2nd year), furthermore he’ll have a Jazz training camp under his belt. Hornacek (a former all-star) improved after a Jazz training camp. If he can, then Favors definitely will as well.

Bashing our bigs on a broken season where we lost our coach and had 8 or more new players and lots of “what am I supposed to do” moments is perfectly fine Clark. Adding another rookie like Kanter will obviously retroactively solve all of those problems. Right? I don’t think so. I also disagree that we know all we can know about this group.

One more year gives us one more year of data, hopefully a better year of health, and a better understanding of the relative abilities, success rates, and potential for all the people involved. If only the Jazz were less trigger happy in the Dell Curry year we would have found out he was a great shooter. Instead the Jazz got rid of him and spent all of Stockton and Malone’s youth looking for a shooting guard. That’s just Jazz history for you.

About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

by AllThatJazzBasketball on May 31, 2011 8:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

operate on offense, i mean, in the first bit there

About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

by AllThatJazzBasketball on May 31, 2011 8:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well I think you are putting way too much faith in the return of Okur, but I hope you are right.

And I’m not evaluating our bigs in a bad season, I am evaluating them in their entire careers in the league. Six years of evidence suggests that Al Jefferson is inefficient, not because he didn’t play with Okur, but because he is inefficient.

You can make a turtle look faster by putting it next to a slug, but it doesn’t change the fact that it isn’t getting anywhere any quicker.

The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.

by clarkpojo on May 31, 2011 10:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

Mesh

I think the big question is how do they mesh. Okur opening up the outside for Jefferson in theory sounds awesome.

I also read somewhere that what Milsap needs is to play along side of Dwight Howard to help with his defensive deficiencies. Well. I think that Favors could be that guy to cover for Milsap, and Milsap could keep doing all those things he does so well.

by JoeBountiful on May 31, 2011 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm with Clark

On the Memo thing. We have a theoretical glut of power forwards IF Memo is healthy and able to play significant minutes at center.

If he is not healthy (Oden, Bynum, Yao, and others have all shown how hard it is for a big to stay healthy once they start getting injured) then it makes perfect sense to draft a young guy to share center duties with Al. If can Memo return to averaging his pre-injury 30+ minutes a game that will be great for us. But it would be bad to assume that as fact with all the evidence to the contrary floating around.

Memo will also be 32 next season. I love the guy but he is not Malone, he won’t be playing starter’s minutes until he is 40. Switching to a two guard set may make sense, but it requires making that commitment AND presuming a healthy Memo to make drafting 2 guards seem like a good idea. If either of those starting presumptions fall through we end up looking like Kahn by drafting 2 PGs. There is a difference in the specifics of our situation and the Rubio fiasco (namely neither of our draft pics can hide in Spain for 3 years hoping to get traded), but the parallel is a valid one none the less.

by 1Jon on May 31, 2011 5:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

or, you know . . .

you could draft a big NEXT year. this next season isn’t the critical make or break year for the team. if we’re going to move on with the rest of the nba upgrading our sorry-ass guard situation appears more critical.

unless you think we can afford to roll with guys like Earl Watson and Raja Bell and compete in the NBA.

About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

by AllThatJazzBasketball on May 31, 2011 5:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

We absolutely could

We could also pick up a big and a guard this year and get our second guard next year. Watson and Bell aren’t championship guards, but they are healthy and we’re not contending next year without a miracle no matter who we draft. With one guard in this year’s draft that gives us Harris, Hayward and Fredette or whoever else fills in at #12 as young guards. We don’t necessarily need a 4th guard to train right now.

My point is twofold. Firstly, our surplus in the front court is overstated. If all our forwards and centers are healthy then we do have more than we need. However that is an unsafe assumption to make because Memo is still trying to come back from injury and has been struggling at it. There is a long list of centers who have made that same struggle, and a short list of the centers who were able to be as effective after their respective injuries as they were before they were injured.

Secondly, drafting two high-usage, scoring oriented guards in the same year is not the recipe for a championship no matter how you slice it. It took Wade and Lebron all year to figure out how to share the court and I don’t see either Knight or Fredette on their talent level. If anything we are more likely drafting into a Carmello/Iverson situation where both of our players need the ball to be effective. Sure the egos aren’t there yet, but again, both Knight and Fredette fill a similar role, one we don’t need to fill twice in the same year.

As for moving on with the rest of the NBA… we didn’t become the franchise we are today by doing what everyone else was doing. True, we’ve been spoiled by superior point guards for the last 20something years. But we’ve never made changes just to fit in and we already have ball handling in Kirilenko and Hayward that we don’t make optimal use of. If we want to switch to multiple-handler sets we can begin by better utilizing the players we have this year and assessing how it works for us rather than selling the farm on the presumption we can force the transition to work. Kirilenko in particular would be a great resign if we can get him at value instead of overpaying like we did last contract.

by 1Jon on May 31, 2011 6:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

I believe Jazz have him all day on June 2nd

About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

by AllThatJazzBasketball on May 30, 2011 8:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

Memo would be the odd man out

Milsap/Favors/Jefferson

Jefferson/Kanter/Memo

I just think Memo is almost done anyway. KOC isn’t planning on him being 100%, and I wouldn’t either.

by Duds on May 31, 2011 11:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

Gordon Hayward

Is a great reason to use a two ball handler set. He’s shown he’s a pretty good playmaker. You don’t need two “point guards” to run that kind of set, just multiple playmakers. That plays to the strengths to one of our better young players and diversifies the offense. The Jazz don’t need to draft two point guards if they want to implement that kind of system. They should look to draft the best players they can, with position they play being somewhat secondary.

by flibbidy on May 30, 2011 8:30 PM MDT reply actions  

I agree with that. I have Hayward being a playmaker as a starter next year.

I’m looking at shoring up our bench though . . . we can do that with one draft here.

Which is stronger:

Watson, Price, Wingplayer, and two of Kanter, Millsap, Okur, Favors (Big Al will start if here next year)

or

Knight, Fredette, Wingplayer, and two of Millsap, Okur, Favors (Big Al will start if here next year)

About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

by AllThatJazzBasketball on May 30, 2011 8:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

This is one of the reasons I'm high on Chris Singleton

One of his biggest weaknesses is ballhandling, but that’s not such a problem if your other wing is the second playmaker in a two ballhandler offense. Given his defensive prowess, if he can show better consistency on his outside shot I think he would be a stellar pickup at #12

by nel812 on May 31, 2011 1:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

Great post.

I love it, and I agree with pretty much everything. I think Drafting Knight and Jimmer is better than drafting Kanter at #3 or a wing player with very little offensive talent at #12. We should trade Harris, maybe for a better pick in the next draft, or a wing defender who can shoot if we don’t re-sign AK.

by Isaxx on May 30, 2011 8:31 PM MDT reply actions  

I think we're drafting a wing ("regardles") next year, hopefully with Golden State's lotto pick

About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

by AllThatJazzBasketball on May 30, 2011 8:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

Only trade Harris if you want the team to be really bad all at once.

by Fesenko for President on May 31, 2011 2:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

I like this post rec'd

Its looking more like Williams wont be there when we pick. Next years draft is loaded with SF’s and this year its loaded with PG’s if we take Knight at 3 and another pg (Jimmer or Jackson) at 12 I wouldn’t mind that at all.

"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."

Norm Sloan

"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."

Weldon Drew

by EcERyda69 on May 30, 2011 11:31 PM MDT reply actions  

Zero-sum game only applies to PG's apparently...

I find it ironic that your zero-sum logic applied to the pg position is then ignored in regards to the bigs. I believe that Kanter is a better pick than Knight. If we draft Kanter it doesn’t mean that all of the sudden we have to take one of our other bigs behind the shed and put them down. I think that most agree that we love Millsap individually and Jefferson is loved/liked by most individually. But it is obvious that they are severely lacking as a frontcourt tandem. It isn’t working, so why keep riding it? Why don’t we address that need by getting a much much more athletic/defensive frontcourt in Favors, Kanter, and Sap or Big Al and trade Sap or Big Al for a real SG/Wing (Monta Ellis, Marcus Thornton, Magette, etc.) Or heck, we could even just dump Big Al for draft picks/salary relief and re-sign AK to a reasonable deal.

Then we can draft a PG at #12 to back up Harris. Thus our lineup would be:
Harris/#12 pick as our PG’s, legit wing (from sap/big al trade)/Hayward/CJ as our wings, and Favors/Kanter/Sap or Big Al as our bigs. Then Bell/Memo/Watson as our insurance policies.

With that we address our 2 biggest needs: better defensive bigs and SG/Wing.

by Jazzfan12 on May 31, 2011 12:21 AM MDT reply actions  

it isn't working based on

a year where we trade our best player, have way too many injuries, and our hall of fame coach retires in the middle of the season? i think it’s a bit premature to break up our front court – especially when all the guys are 26 years old or younger. one more season is needed i think, but no one has to agree with me. i would like to see our front court rotation be start memo (18-22 mins per game max) and big al. first big off the bench is either sap or favors (depending on the team we play). we didn’t get a shot to see that rotation last year, so i wouldn’t say it wasn’t working. we haven’t even had a chance to put the saddle on it, let alone ‘ride’ that.

bigmen have a limited amount of space to work with, especially if they are traditional bigs. for the most part it is a zero-sum game in the paint, hence, the need to move millsap increasingly out of his comfort zone to make space for al to work. (did you mean that i should be using the nash equilibrium for the paint guys as well?)

i understand completely that a guy who has never played against people his size, and hasn’t played at all for a year, is better than knight. i don’t agree with that though. is he more athletic than memo? I don’t know. they are about the same size, the only difference is that memo doesn’t get rookie calls on defense and who knows how his health is. is kanter more athletic than millsap? or more defensive minded? Millsap has been forced to guard everyone from steven jackson to andrew bynum. the versatility is there. i have no doubt that kanter is cheaper and faster than big al. but moving big al (for a wing or whatever) in order to making playing time space for kanter does not automatically make our frontcourt better.

if we want a real defensive big he needs to have a 12’ + max reach, good speeds, great wingspan and be a legit shot blocker. kanter isn’t one of those guys, by the numbers. favors yes. and that’s the next thing. the jazz are BAD at developing bigmen. there already exists a STRUGGLE to get favors the playing time he needs. getting another young big will only make the struggle greater — and the jazz development staff will ultimately fail. i have no trust in them not to mess that up.

you have interesting points, but i think there are to many external factors that prevent me from falling in love with picking kanter. but again, if kanter is someone we pass on, and he becomes the jordan of bigmen, i will own up to it.

About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

by AllThatJazzBasketball on May 31, 2011 8:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

i agree mostly

But Kanter, Vesely and the Jonas guy must be thoroughly evaluated and worked out if possible. just to make sure we do the right thing at #3. the mock drafts for next year dont show any super PGs at the top so maybe this is the year for us to snag one for the future. But still, BPA all the way for the third pick.

by drakeramore on May 31, 2011 8:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well, I agree implicitly.

I don’t know if Kanter is the BPA though. That is a headache for the Jazz brass, and not me though. They’re seeing him all day on June 3rd, then flying off to Europe to check out the rest, I presume. By the end of the trip they should know a whole lot more. It wouldn’t surprise me to see the Jazz draft someone OTHER than Kanter or Knight with the #3.

About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

by AllThatJazzBasketball on May 31, 2011 8:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

if that happens

and the Jazz do draft somebody not named Knight or Kanter at #3 imagine the shock and the backlash by the fanbase, let alone the boos at the draft. But, to me, analyzing and grading a draft choice immediately after it, is downright stupid. Its ridiculous. So I would be willing to give KOC and the FO the benefit of the doubt no matter who we draft at #3. Or at #12 for that matter. Otherwise we should just get Chad Ford to conduct the draft and be done with it. (nothing against Chad Ford)

by drakeramore on May 31, 2011 8:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

as a fanbase

we have a history of cheering for guys who we once booed

About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

by AllThatJazzBasketball on May 31, 2011 8:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

Kanter

I agree that if Kanter is the BPA at 3 then the Jazz take him but I would like to hear why everyone thinks that Kanter is the clear cut #3? I really think that Brandon Knight proved that he is the better player by taking a rookie team to the final four. Of course Kanter hasnt played so how could he have proved anything to us? Well that is exactly my point. I am not saying that Kanter will not be a great player, he might be the best in this draft class but I think there are more questions surrounding him than anyone else.

Those Kanter lovers out there, why do you think he is the BPA at 3? what is your opinion based off of? I hope you have more than the Nike hoops summit game and his combine measurements….

Again, if the Jazz think that he is the BPA then take him. I have no problem with that. But I think Brandon Knight has proven himself to be a solid NBA player whereas Kanter is a big question mark.

It might also be a good thing to sit down and try to think what “best player available” really means because I am not sure that most of us really know

by woodstock17 on May 31, 2011 1:22 AM MDT reply actions   1 recs

You could say the same about Irving

I mean really, Irving played a total of 303 Minutes in college. A fraction of what people should have before they make a decision as a “sure thing #1 pick” that everyone has him pegged as. Do you have him as #1?

People are going to have to make a decision with Kanter based on only a couple of games. The Nike game was impressive though, and that’s why people are in love him. Let’s be honest though, fans get sucked into hype. If you don’t trust Kanter, then you shouldn’t trust Irving.

by Duds on May 31, 2011 11:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great post

I basically agree with you 100%, although I’m not convinced that Knight can run an offense better than Fredette. Not now, at least. He’s smart enough that he may after a couple years in the NBA.

by Caderade on May 31, 2011 1:43 AM MDT reply actions  

By the way, this article got a shout out from Locke this morning. I didn’t even know he read the blog.

by Caderade on May 31, 2011 1:21 PM MDT reply actions  

2-3 Low Offense

Lot’s of people talk about Milsap switching to play the three more often. If, like you say, the Jazz should go to a 2-3 Low Offense from a flex. Would this make it easier to play our best players (Milsap, Favors, and Jefferson) together?

I don’t see any need to bring in Kantor as we are very stocked at the C/PF position and his talent level doesn’t far outstrip Knight.

by JoeBountiful on May 31, 2011 1:49 PM MDT reply actions  

This blog gave me something new to think about and I liked it. I don’t really have a good opinion anymore about who the Jazz should draft. I have flip flopped more in my position about who the Jazz should draft this year than Mitt Romney has in his positions on political issues.

However, I do have one idea to think about. If the Jazz believe that Kanter and Knight are just about equal as far as being the BPA, they should consider “trade-in” value. Namely, if either player does not work out well for the Jazz, how easy will it be to trade that player and get anything of value in return. For example, look at the difference between Jonny Flynn and Hasheem Thabeet. Even though Thabeet has hardly played even in the D-league, Memphis was able to trade him for Shane Battier, who helped Memphis immensely in this year’s play-off run. On the other hand, although I though Flynn looked pretty good the couple of times I saw him play against the Jazz, as one of those “jitterbug” type of point guards who could really penetrate, apparently the Timberwolves are having a somewhat difficult time trading him—the rumor is that they offered him to the Jazz for the “washed-up” Raja Bell, and the Jazz didn’t bite on the trade.

Also, look at Darko Milicic. He has now played for 5 different teams, and is still not very good, but someone always wants to give him a chance, because he is big. Kanter may have much better “trade-in” value than Knight.

One final note. Am I just fantasizing, or does Marshon Brooks look like he might be the BPA at the #12 pick—based on his performance, his measurements, and his athleticism. The criticism I have heard is that he looked great, but he did those things against weak competition at a small school in a mid-major conference. Is Providence really considered to be a small school in a mid-major conference? I thought Providence played in the Big East. which is historically one of the toughest basketball conferences.

by Fesenko for President on May 31, 2011 3:07 PM MDT reply actions  

Good post. Teams will always take a chance on bigs because they are so hard to come by. Just look at Oden. He hasn’t done a thing in the NBA and I guarantee he will have at least 10 teams show interest when his contract is up.

While I do like your reasoning, I don’t think you should ever draft a player just because he could be easy to trade. The only way I would consider this is if you select him in the draft and then trade him immediately for an already agreed upon trade from a team that is high on him.

by TurboJazz224 on May 31, 2011 3:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm probably totally in the minority here

but if the Jazz went PG and Wing in this draft and somehow were able to trade Memo or Jefferson or Millsap

I would TOTALLY offer Oden a contract. Seriously, if that guy ever gets healthy he is going to beast in this league. I would totally take a chance on him. Freakin Oden and Favors as our front court for a few years would be flippen AMAZING.

For the Love of the Game

Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!

"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).

MonSTARZ forever!

by ForTheLove on May 31, 2011 6:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

I would do the same

The only thing I would worry about is that other teams would also want to take a chance with Odense and drive his price way up-high enough that his would be a horrible, roster killing contract if he stayed injured.

But if his price doesn’t go up too much, I would do it too.

I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time

by Yucca Man on Jun 1, 2011 7:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

Agreed

But it totally depends on the price and whether they can get insurance on it.

I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.

by JazzHype on Jun 1, 2011 10:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

Trade both picks for the best available pick in next years draft

Harris will be better next year. Hayward will start at 2. Kirilenko will resign for about 8 mil, start at 3 with milsap getting his additional minnutes there (6 man OTY potential) Favors starts at 4 ( improves after AllStar game). Big Al starts at 5, Okur and Millsap rotate around as backup OF and Center. CJ backsup Andrei and Precious. Resign FEZ for cheap-ish. He likes it here. And hopefully next year we are Cleveland and getting the 1-4 Quinella. There will be a hard salary cap next year.

by SteelersJazz on May 31, 2011 10:27 PM MDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
The Raja trade
Small
Random free agent idea
Karlmalone_small
My Jazz Dream Last Night
Sb_nation_avi_1_small
I Got The Bad Crap: Quickmeme of Celtic Pride
Small
Yet another trade idea
Small
Just another trade scenario
Small
Team USA Challenge
Small
Trade Scenarios For Shooter
Small
Why I want KOC out
Small
Jeremy Evans Mix!

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Uf_medium 

More great SB Nation Blogs


Stockton to Malone

Utahjazz_small clarkpojo

Allthatamar_wip_small AllThatJazzBasketball

Starters

Jerry-b_small moni

Ppr-3_small prodigal punk

Myprofile_small Yucca Man

2012-01-03_21-25-16_231_small dianaallen

Bench Threats

New-player-of-utah-jazz-enes-kanter-2011-06-24_v_small UtesFan89

John-stockton-300b0518_small TazzJazzFan

N576670048_8084_small andylarsen

Jackpotting HOF

Megajazznew_small Shums

Slcdunk_logo_three_colors_small Basketball Kris