Where Do The Jazz Land An All-NBA Player? The Downbeat - #502
Kurt Kragthorpe brings up an excellent point about star players in the NBA. We don't have one and we desperately need one if the team is to return to true contention. Kragthorpe lays it out,
Recent history shows it takes one or more great players to win the West. I'm talking about All-NBA players, not just All-Stars. Beginning in 1997 with the Jazz's Karl Malone, the West champion has featured at least one member of the All-NBA first team. That's one of the five best players in the league, as judged by voting at the end of the regular season.
Dallas technically ended that streak, with Nowitzki only a second-team choice this year. But considering he missed 35 games because of injury and almost made the first team, my argument is intact.
He goes on to speculate about the current Jazz players and which of them could turn into an All-NBA player. Right now, as much promise as they've shown, they're all a long ways away from that status. Derrick Favors of course has the most upside with Gordon Hayward next in line.
When you consider the other players on the first through third team from last season, will Favors or Hayward crack that list in the next 3-4 seasons? With the exception of Kobe, all of those guys are relatively young and should be there for a while.
Let's say though that the Jazz don't have an All-NBA player but end up with 2-3 All-stars or borderline All-stars. Will that be enough to return to true contention?
Two point guards who may never be associated with the Jazz again will play in the American Century Championship golf tournament next month in Nevada. This is the golf tournament that Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, and other big-name athletes play in every season with a purse of $600k and probably another $500k in bets.
Deron Williams and Jimmer Fredette will play for the first time in the tourney next month. Mike Sorensen was on a conference call to talk with the two where Fredette was asked about "his golf game, his pre-draft workouts, the NBA lockout, his defensive liabilities and even one about a creative left-handed 3-point buzzer-beater he once made in high school and whether his basketball creativity will carry over to the golf course next month. Really."
DWill missed the call citing a time-zone mishap and missed the conference call but Sorensen was able to talk to him shortly after the call. Deron talked a bit about Jimmer,
I've never met him, but I went and saw him play. I'm a big fan of his. I think he's a great player.
I'm just hoping that somehow those two get put into a foursome with Barkley.
Trust in The Kahn I guess. He finally got Ricky Rubio to commit. Rubio will come play in the NBA next season and will buy himself out of his contract with Barcelona. The price for that buyout is $1.6M to which the Timberwolves can contribute $500k. That will leave Rubio with having to pay $1.1M of his own money to get out of his contract.
I really didn't think we'd see Rubio in the NBA until the 2013 season for a few reasons. One, that's a huge chunk of money for a buyout for someone that will be on a rookie salary scale. That leads to the next point. If he had waited until after next season to come stateside, he wouldn't be under the rookie salary scale and could have negotiated for whatever he could get Minny to pay him. Finally, if there's a shortened season because of a lockout, that's even more money that he stands to lose.
The upside for him now though is that he could get some lucrative endorsement deals that would offset some or all of those losses.
So how does this pertain to the Jazz? I don't know if this makes it more likely now that the Wolves will trade out of that two spot or not. They definitely won't be taking Kyrie Irving should the Cavs go with Derrick Williams. At least I don't think. 99.5% sure. If the Cavs do decide to go with Williams, then the Jazz would have to take Irving unless someone trades up to get him.
You know what? I'm probably going to stop trying to guess what Kahn is going to do. Really, anything he does with the #2 pick wouldn't surprise me. It's a major coup for him though to not only convince Rubio to come to Minnesota and to get him under a rookie contract. I still don't know how he did it.
Remember Big Al's car? Seems like he was in a little civil matter over the payment of getting his ride pimped. From BDL (they also have video),
According to one Minnesota man, Utah Jazz big man Al Jefferson is a very, very bad man, having scammed the man out of $25,000 in a car deal gone wrong.
Eric Lero runs Sub Zero Sounds, up in Minneapolis, Minn., and he contends that Jefferson stopped payment on what was a $60,000 bill for work Lero did on one (we're hoping) of Jefferson's cars. Though Jefferson paid the first down payment and later dues after a court settlement, Lero isn't happy with the result.
Jefferson gave Sub Zero Sounds $30k up front for the work. Later though after he paid the remaining sum with two checks, Jefferson cancelled those payments. In the video, Lero states that Al's assistant told him to his face that they never intended on paying for the other half of the amount. BDL goes on to speculate how things might have played out,
Jefferson looks terrible here for refusing to pay the second half of his bill, no matter how much money he makes per season (around $12 million per), but unless Lero added a sparkling new V8 into the mix, then that initial $30,000 sounds about right. For Jefferson to then have to pay $15,000 to Lero in order for him to cover court costs sounds about right as well. We're not familiar with the court case, and though there are flaws in our legal system, usually these sorts of claims courts tend to do a fair enough job getting people to pay off what they just bought. If Lero was owed another $30,000 plus court costs, Jefferson likely would have had to pay that.
Neither Jefferon nor his agent responded to the reporters calls. Too bad we couldn't get Al's side of the story on this.
Jan Vesely is one of the international players the Jazz are going to see when they visit Europe this month. However, according to HoopsHype (via SBN), Vesely won't be doing any workouts with teams,
According to his agent, Aleksandar Raskovic, Vesely will not take part in workouts with NBA teams. Raskovic said his client will be in New York on June 17, though, to go through physical tests akin to the ones draft prospects had at the Chicago combine earlier this month.
Vesely has been described as an Andrei Kirilenko clone, right down to the poor jump shot. More from HoopsHype,
"He's a bad shooter and has to improve in that area, but he has all the time in the world to do that," said Nikola Loncar, a former world champion with Yugoslavia that's now doing work as an NBA analyst for Spanish TV. "He's a great leaper, but doesn't take physical contact well. He needs to put on more muscle. His body type is a lot likeToni Kukoc's right now. It's good that he can run and jump so well, but he needs to be able to deal with physical play better."
I'm not a draft expert by any means, but why is he a top-5 pick? I know this is a down year for the draft but this doesn't sound like a player you take this high.
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He says the "f" word too. We can't have that type of attitude in the locker room.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
"focus"?
or the even worse “focus hats”?
by davidthecomposer on Jun 2, 2011 12:43 PM MDT up reply actions
We dont know both sides of the story though!
I think what I can say for sure is……if your going to spend that kind of money, you ought to have a much better looking ride than that!! ugh.
1. All NBA
Uhh that’s why you don’t trade them away. Favors is nice but I would think all-star is his ceiling. No way he is the best player at his position in the next ten years.
by jusorenson on Jun 2, 2011 10:32 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
I only see Dwight Howard as being the best at either big position. I think Favors could surpass everybody else with work and maybe Dwight if he works. His short jumper was falling last year and he’s good on defense. if he becomes the center of our offense then his stats could support voting for all nba or all star.
Let's not overstate Howard's basketball skills
He may be the best big man today, but he’s not Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, David Robinson, or Malone. Not even close, really.
And think about the next ten years. In ten years Dwight will be 35. How many centers are still the best when they’re 35? (Favors, on the other hand, will be 29 and could be killing the league).
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
#4 Big deal.
Besides the fact that I wouldn’t pay a single dollar to drive around in a car that looks like that – SubZero took Al to court & was rewarded with a settlement, which Al paid. End of story. If Mr. Lero doesn’t like the court’s decision, he should take it up with the court, not the media. He looks like an @$$ and an unintelligent businessman to boot (“He paid half ($30k) up front, then wrote 2 checks for the other half. How can he get away with writing $25k worth of bad checks?” First of all, learn some math. Second of all, stopping payment is not writing a bad check, and as a businessman you should know that. Nice BS attempt, though. And then he went and spent $10k on a lawyer for something that can be done pro se.). And there is no need for Al to comment or respond to the story, since from his viewpoint it’s already been solved. Sounds like it was a sloooow news day for that station.
I'm sorry - Did you actually just suggest that there are teams I care about besides the Jazz?
And now I'm making the same comment again
1- Teams need great players — All-NBA-type players to be genuine contenders. This isn’t new. So what does a team if its primary players are NOT going to be on an All-NBA team anytime soon?
Keep the status quo?
Come on. The way to find genuinely terrific players is to get them via the draft. So for crying out loud, why is it so radical to suggest that the Jazz build through the draft over the next 2-3 years? It’s the only likely way the team becomes great again.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
There have been 9 different players who have made the 1st team all-NBA in the last 4 years.
Lebron James – 1st overall draft pick
Kobe Bryant- 13th overall draft pick
Dwyane Wade- 5th overall draft pick
Dwight Howard- 1st overall draft pick
Derrick Rose- 1st overall draft pick
Kevin Durant- 2nd overall draft pick
Dirk Nowitzki- 9th overall draft pick traded for the 6th overall draft pick
Chris Paul- 4th overall draft pick
Kevin Garnett- 5th overall draft pick
So if you believe Kurt Kragthorpe, then the Jazz need to get lottery picks for a year or two and there are only two ways the Jazz can do that: be really bad for a year or two, or else trade your 1st team all-NBA type players for more lottery picks.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Did Detroit have any all NBA team players on that squad when they won it all?
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
Ben Wallace was on the 2nd team twice and the 3rd team once between the years of 2003 and 2006.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
So the East is in a different boat then the West
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
Not really
Here’s the best players on the East’s finals representative in the last 12 years:
MJ, Ewing, Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson, Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups, Wade, LeBron, Garnett, Dwight, Pierce.
It’s not quite as dominant a list as the WC’s (Ewing, Reggie, Garnett, and Pierce were past their prime, but still former 1st and 2nd team All-NBA’ers). But it still shows that you generally need an all-time great player.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
wait a minute....
I seem to remember… meh never mind haha.
I think 2 All-NBA players makes you a champion most year. One All NBA player and 2 All-stars will also do it.
Once in a while you get outliers like the Pistons, though they had a bunch of great players.
that is a little bit discouraging for the Jazz. I think they will have to hope for the second version of a championship formula.
by davidthecomposer on Jun 2, 2011 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Detroit's championship was a fluke
That will probably never, ever happen again.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
It may never happen again
but the fact that it did happen gives us fans hope that a team filled with non stars can get it done
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
Mavs
Mavs are kind of taking a Detroit-like course. Dirk is one of the league’s top players but all in all the Mavericks have slowly, very slowly been building to this point. But as a fan it is frustrating to realize that basically you have a small window every 20 or 30 years and everything has to fall right for that to work. Easier to be an LALaker fan knowing that you can just reload every decade. Howard and Williams or Paul will be in LA after 2012 with aging Kobe and Laker fan won’t have to wait long to rebuild whereas the Jazz just started a process whereby, at best, the Jazz might be pretty good in 5-6 years. No one who isn’t related to O’Connor or the Miller family or isn’t no the Jazz payroll like Boler and Locke thinks the Jazz will be any good in the short term. There is just nothing there.
by scott smith on Jun 4, 2011 2:10 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Isnt Vessely under contract with his team overseas
If they draft him are we going to see another Tomic where the Jazz have to buy him out?
I wouldnt mind the Jazz drafting him because he fills a need at the SF position. He is pretty much a clone of AK. I would rather see him in a jazz uni then another Center/PF in Kanter, it will just cause a log jam at a position where we need to get minutes to guys that need it.
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
5 - Jan has never impressed me
He’s a taller Jeremy Evans who is great in the paint when not defended (scores on put backs a lot, on the break). Jumper is bad. Yes he’s 6’11 — but I’m sure he’s weak as Pakistan’s clout in the UN right now. Why is he a prospect? I guess his age, and the fact that so many guys are waiting till next yet.
About me: I used to run AllThatJazzBasketball.Blogspot.com - now you may know me as the Sunday Syncopation guy or the GO Rating guy.You can reach me via e-mail ( allthatjazzbasketball@hotmail.com ) or on teh twitters. Really, I'm not lonely or anything . . .
2010-2011 Season Statistical Reviews (games): 10, 22, 30, 40, 51, 60a 60b, 70a 70b, 82
2010-2011 Season Review (part): 1, 2, 3, 4a 4b, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11
by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jun 2, 2011 11:27 AM MDT reply actions
1. ECRyda stole my question. The Pistons made it to the Finals with Wallace being a 2nd team and then a 3rd team. It definitely wasn’t for his offense. I think the Jazz will be okay with some 4 solid players who play like that Pistons team. However, it would definitely help to have an All-NBA player. A star. A go to guy.
4. I knew there was some story behind that picture.
1
How many of those All NBA listed were traded for future picks? None. Also what happened to patience? How old were the statues when they made the finals? Should we of traded them for additional lottery picks? I glad we have Favors and I hope we give him all the time he needs and we keep him til he decides to leave.
by jusorenson on Jun 2, 2011 11:57 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
This is what the Lakers paid for Pau
Memphis will receive forward Kwame Brown, guard Javaris Crittenton, guard Aaron McKie (who the Lakers signed earlier today), the draft rights to Marc Gasol and first round picks in 2008 and 2010
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
This is what the Knicks paid for Stoudemire
The Knicks sent a trade exception and possibly a draft pick to the Suns while Stoudemire signed a five-year deal worth approximately $100 million. The exception is believed to be worth about $16.5 million and the draft pick likely will be a second-rounder sent to Phoenix.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
This is what the Heat paid for Lebron
The Heat sent Cleveland two first-round draft picks and two second-round picks, as well as a large trade exception, for James. The first-round picks could be between 2013 and 2017. The second-round picks are in 2012 (acquired from New Orleans) and a future pick acquired from Oklahoma City. For some reason, the Cavs will have the option to swap 2012 first-round picks with the Heat as well. The trade exception can be used within one year.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Agree-
I don’t beleive this applies to Harris or Jefferson as Stock and Karl were already at an all-NBA level when they were in their mid to late twenties, but I do agree that when you get those guys, you need to keep them. That was the point I made when DWill was traded…Young guys don’t win NBA titles. All-NBA players in their late twenties/early thirties do. Patience is a must. I can understand the DWill trade now, but I hope it was not the begining of a trend for this team. If you have a guy at that level, you need to keep him. That is one of the reasons I am pulling for Dirk (although I don’t really like him).
by Theagreement on Jun 2, 2011 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions
If you have a guy at that level, you need to keep him.
Except when he can Decision your team into a 19 win season. We will never know whether Derron would have stayed or not; but the threat him leaving us with nothing to show for it was a big motivator in the trade.
True, but...
Malone threatened to leave the jazz high-and-dry more than once. One year (1994 I think?) the opinion columns in the SL Trib and Deseret News were calling for a trade for younger players almost incessantly, because Malone was threatening to leave again. Obviously he didn’t, and his best years were ahead of him. The same thing is happening with Dwight in Orlando right now. He wants to stay in Orlando, but he is non-committal on an extension. Point is, you really have to walk a fine line. When Deron was traded, the first thought that came to my mind was that if Larry H were alive, it would not have gone down the way it did (which is obviously open for debate). My biggest question for the Jazz FO is whether or not they can stomach a situation like Malone put them in, or if they will pull the trigger again like they did with Deron. Can you imagine if the Jazz would have traded Karl? Many, many fans wanted that to happen in the mid-nineties.
Unfortunately, the Jazz will be faced with another situation like DWill’s at some point, whether it be with Favors, Hayward, Knight, or whoever. How will Greg and Kevin respond? Sometimes, you have to let it ride, and let the chips fall where they may.
Interesting point
I agree that if Larry H had been running things, they wouldn’t have worked out that way. I think Larry would have bent over backwards to keep Deron happy and made Deron be the bad guy, at the very least. If he bails, then we take his salary, buckle down and fight through some bad seasons. None of this preemptive strike stuff.
However, Larry H wasn’t there, and I don’t think it was wise in the current NBA climate to hope for loyalty. Larry H was the rare owner who showed loyalty to his top players and somehow got them to want to show loyalty back.
The bigger question than how will Greg and Kevin respond to the situation is who will play the role of Larry H Miller to develop a personal relationship with the best players and get them to feel the loyalty to the organization that will keep them here for the long haul? I think that’s what’s missing from the current organization. Without that extra incentive to stay, the Jazz are just a low-draw small town market team that will consistently lose its best players or overpay mediocre ones.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Stock and Karl made the NBA finals when they were 33 and 34 years old.
But Karl made the All-NBA team in his third season at the age of 24. Stock made it when he was 25, his fourth season but first as a starter.
Here’s the truth: if a player is going to be truly great, 99% of the time you can tell within the first two years after giving him a leading role. Often even sooner. We know Al, Sap, and Harris won’t be. So let’s see if Favors and Hayward can be. If so, great. If not, then we’re in good position to find one the next couple of years.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I think this was more accurate back in the day when players were staying in college for 3-4 years. In the NBA today I think you have to give players a little more time to develop since they are coming into the league so young.
by TurboJazz224 on Jun 2, 2011 12:34 PM MDT up reply actions
Like LeBron?
Like Dwight, Griffin, Rose …
I could go on. They do need more time before they reach their peak, but they were still obviously on the way to being great players in just their first or second seasons. You can tell quickly if players have it or not.
Look at the list of All-NBA players Clark posted above. Name one who you couldn’t tell would be great by their second year of given a starting, leading role on their team.
It’s the truth. Even if nobody wants to admit it.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I defintely agree that many if not most of the greatest players in the league prove their worth in the first two years.
The one thing I will add is that most these players are either freakishly athletic, or have freakish measurements before they even played in the NBA. There are a lot of players in the league that are/were worthy to lead a team to a championship who took a few more years to develop because they had to develop their game.
wouldn't mind Jimmer with the 12 pick
esp if Jimmer can play a legitimate backup PG role plus be a legitimate 3-point shooter; I hate BYU but Jimmer was a 4-yr starter and seems to have good character and work ethic; his college stats are so much like Reddick and also like Curry, hard to know which player he’ll become or neither; but if he can play some PG or handle the ball sometimes as a SG and hit spot-up 3s, could be a decent pick at 12 in a weak draft; Jimmer doesn’t have much height which is a problem; we know Kevin O’Connor loves slow white guys so there’s probably 3-2 odds we take Jimmer
don't draft canter
Seems like there is too much risk in drafting a guy no one has seen play for a year. He’s listed at center but doesn’t have true center size and we have like fourteen guys on the roster at PF already.
Kobe is one player who was not that good in his first couple of years in the league; hopefully somehow Favors can improve dramatically on his rookie campaign and become like Kemp or something.
I agree with the comment above that it was a mistake to trade Williams, arguably a top 5 or 6 player in the NBA, for basically an unproven draft pick. Even if Favors is good, hard to imagine he’ll crack the top 5 or 6 status anytime in the next 5-6 years if ever. Better to have stuck it out with Williams despite higher risk scenario.
Williams was the only Jazz player who commanded a legitimate double team or made the other team worry at all—now we are a team with a bunch of average guys.
Don’t like what I’ve seen out of Greg Miller so far. Wouldn’t sign Matthews to a pretty reasonable deal despite the dire need at SG and then Matthew turns around and averages 15 PPG and about 40% from 3 in Portland. Matthews isn’t Ray Allen or anything but he’s a starter at a position where the Jazz have historically struggled. Maybe if they had kept Matthews, they never would have lost Deron in the first place.
And then the Jazz get weak-kneed with Deron and jump the gun like 1.5 years before his contract is up. I guess the “good news” is there is no reason to believe the Jazz will win more than 30 games next year which means we’ll be back in the lottery plus we have the extra pick next year. We really need to focus on sucking for 2-3 years and hope for some quality picks. The worst thing to happen to this team would to be win like 40 games next year.

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