Jazz Will Regret Passing on Jonas Valanciunas
In the interest of full disclosure, I have to admit that prior to the draft, I did not spend much time researching Jonas Valanciunas. Almost every draft site had pegged the Jazz choosing either Knight (early on) or Kanter (closer to the draft), so I spent most of my time focusing on those two. I also watched Locke's breakdown of JV, and after that, decided I wouldn't waste much effort on JV. However, I became aware of exactly who he was during the FIBA Under 19 World Championships last week, which he absolutely dominated as he lead his team to the title while earning MVP honors. After watching a couple of games and reading up on his performance, I decided to spend some time learning about his game and, hopefully, gaining an understanding of why the Jazz did not take him. Unfortunately, the only thing I realized was how badly the Jazz will regret NOT taking him.
Before anlayzing JV and comparing him to Kanter, I first want to point out that every non-Jordan championship team over the past two decades has had a dominant defensive center. Consider these names: Hakeem, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Shaq, Ben and Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Andrew Bynum and Paul Gasol, and Tyson Chandler. As a Jazz fan, it is painfully obvious that you cannot win a title without a center who is willing and able to both guard post players and protect the rim from penetrating wings. This is especially painful because the Jazz have not had such a big man since Mark Eaton. Which brings us to JV.
According to Draft Express and other threads I read (I have included an enlightening thread from Real GM at the bottom of this post), JV's primary strength is his defense. He is known to be extremely aggressive on that end (in fact, one the knocks on his game you will read about is that he is too aggressive on defense, often resulting in him getting into foul trouble) and takes a lot of pride in playing great defense. He is also tall with very long arms (he's an inch or two taller than Kanter, has a 2-3 inch wider wingspan, and a 2-3 inch longer standing reach), which means he will be a true center in the NBA, as opposed to Kanter who is an undersized center at best (many reports say he wants to play PF in the NBA instead of center). Kanter, on the other hand, hasn't shown a willingness to play defense (read Draft Express's analysis for more detail). He also doesn't have the length or athleticism to protect the rim even if he had the desire to play defense. So even if JV's offense isn't as polished as Kanter, there is no question that JV has the potential to be much, much better defensively (which is the Jazz's biggest need).
Not only is JV clearly the superior defender when compared to Kanter, but he also has the ability to be a solid contributor on offense. Admittedly, Kanter's strength is his offense. He is considered to be very polished offensively with a body that can bang with NBA big men. As a Jazz fan, I hope the reports are accurate and that he develops into a beast in the post. However, JV is no slouch on offense either. First, he shoots nearly 90% from the foul line. So even though he is not known for his perimeter game, he clearly has the potential to develop a solid mid range jump shot. He is also a great finisher in the post and off of the pick and roll. Even if his game isn't to the point that you can throw him the ball in the post and expect him to score for you or run your offense through him, he will finish shots he gets off of cuts to the basket and pick and rolls (unlike most Jazz centers of recent or distant memory). Those skills alone could easily net him 12-16 points a game in the Jazz offense. And if he is able to develop any type of post game, he could become a 20 point scorer.
Because it has been said that JV's game needed further development, it has been said that Kanter was the safer pick between the two. However, I am not so sure this is the case. Kanter was an early bloomer who dominated Europe in his early and mid teens (he also had some great games against JV in European Championships), but he hasn't played competitively for nearly two years and nobody knows how his game has developed since then. He also has no experience (other than a short stint in the Turkish professional leagues) against competition above his age group. JV, on the other hand, has been rapidly improving his game over the past two years while playing in Europe's highest level of basketball - and putting up great per minute numbers (his per game numbers aren't all that eye-opening, but when you consider he was 18 and only playing 15 minutes a night, they are very solid). He has also gained 15-20 pounds over that time and shown a willingness to work hard and do what it takes to get better. The fact that he has produced against an extremely high level of competition, while Kanter hasn't even faced such a level of competition, makes me think JV could actually be the safest pick. The jump to the NBA level of competition won't be nearly as big for JV as it will be for Kanter, so it's much easier to predict how JV will do based on his performance in the Euroleague.
To wrap things up, I find it ironic that the Jazz have wasted so many first round picks on tall white guys, hoping to find a legitimate NBA center who can clog up the middle on defense, only to pass on the right guy when he is sitting right in front of them. I sincerely hope I'm wrong on this, but when I think of the defensive havoc he could have caused next to Favors and what a great front line the Jazz could have had for the next decade plus, I can't help but wonder what KOC was thinking. Instead, he followed his recent trend of acquiring undersized bigs who are good on offense but don't play defense. Where has that gotten the Jazz? Even with an all NBA point guard, the closest they came was the Western Conference Finals in a fluke year when the 1 seed lost to an 8 (and since then no better than the second round). It doesn't make much sense to me to take a guy who, if he develops as we hope, will essentially become Al Jeffeson 2.0 when we could have taken a player with the potential to be Tyson Chandler with an offensive game. How did adding a player like that work out for Dallas last year?
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1090163
All comments are the opinion of the commenter and not necessarily that of SLC Dunk or SB Nation.
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Kanter is a Jazzman.
I support him.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
i'm just totally amazed
that the user name “FireKOC” was still available.
by moni on Jul 14, 2011 7:06 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Very well thought out
And you may end up being correct. But KOC and Corbin saw something in Kanter that they obviously didn’t in JV, and they made this decision with a lot of resources, including working out the players themselves, at their disposal. I’m inclined to trust their judgment at this point.
Also, there is this assumption that Kanter cannot play defense. The fact is, we just don’t know yet. Also, his game won’t be like Al Jefferson’s. I’ve read more comparisons to Al Horford, and Amar mentioned Luis Scola. That is what I think Kanter could be- a taller Luis Scola- ie a high (not low) post game)
The Jazz also have their defensive big in Derrick Favors. He has the tools to be an All NBA defender, a game changer on that end of the floor. Perhaps knowing this the Jazz FO decided to pair him with a high post scorer like Kanter?
I appreciate how well thought out and written your post was. Give Kanter a shot.
Hope You are Right
I think the post may have come across as being more anti-Kanter than I wanted it. I don’t dislike Kanter or think he will be a bust – I just think JV will be a better NBA player and would have been a better fit for the Jazz.
I think Scola/Horford are also good comparisons, and I hope he does develop into a solid defensive player. I just haven’t read or seen anything indicating he has that in him. And even if he shows effort on that end, he simply doesn’t have the size or the athletic ability to defend the rim like JV does. That’s a huge difference in my mind and, if you look at the centers that have led teams to titles over the past 20 years, a near necessity to win one.
I also really like Favors’ potential on defense, but he isn’t a center. I was amazed how small he looked next to guys like Garnett, Bynum and Gasol last year. To have a legit shot at a title, the Jazz need a legit 7 foot center to guard the post. Pairing such a player with a PF like Favors would be even more devastating in my mind and if both guys developed as I think they can – could become a championship front court.
Clearly the Jazz FO spent more time evaluating these guys than I did, and I hope they are right. But KOC’s history of missing on first round picks (especially when he has picked bigs) combined with what I have seen from JV make me question this pick. Hopefully I’m wrong because I don’t want to spend the next 15 years wishing JV was on the Jazz.
Yeah, I see what you're saying
I just don’t think JV will be THAT dominate defensively. I see him him being closer to Andris Biedrins than Tyson Chandler.
Favors actually has pretty decent size- and it’s length that matter, not height. Derrick has plenty of arm length. Dwight Howard is roughly the same size as Favors- just heavier at this point, and a bit longer- and Howard is the best defender in the league . Favors is only 19 and will gain muscle/weight. He measures better than Al Horford, another defensive guru who plays center. In short, I believe Kanter/Favors will be a decent sized frontcourt.
In the end, I think this closely mirror the 2007 draft that saw the Bulls take Noah and the Hawks Horford. Different styles, different strengths…but I don’t think either team is disappointed by their player. Kanter and JV should both be good contributors with their own niche. Let’s hope the Jazz really did do the research I think they did in picking the right player for them.
Very True
That’s very true. He’s clearly not as athletic as Chandler, which will limit him somewhat. Biedrins could be a good comparison defensively, but I think JV will be more effective offensively and, therefore, an overall better player.
Good call on the FO – they spend thousands of hours evaluating these guys so we have to hope they put that time to good use and it works out. I’m definitely rooting for Kanter to pan out. He seems genuinely happy to be playing for the Jazz and certainly has potential to be great. I’ve just always been a sucker for long, defensive centers because it is such a critical piece to title teams – and something the Jazz have always lacked.
Thanks for your responses and thoughts. I appreciate seeing the other side – I have become a little myopic regarding JV of late!
Being dominant defensively in a FIBA game
does NOT… I repeat does NOT translate to a NBA-ready defensive center. There is still so much pass and cut, 5 out and 4 out offenses in the world game right now, that even a Shaq in his prime would be useless defensively at the FIBA level.
I just reject the premise of being defensively dominant at FIBA makes you a elite NBA defensive prospect.
Birdland and Buck both start with B... coincidence? I think not.
by Birdland in NC on Aug 3, 2011 7:25 PM MDT up reply actions
One thing that kills the argument
Ben Wallace.
According to 82games.com, he measured 6’7" at the pre-draft camps. But his wingspan bumps him up to the average 6’10" PF.
There’s more than just height. If Kanter plays hard defensively, that should be enough.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Good Point
Good point on Ben Wallace, but he also played alongside Rasheed Wallace who measured 6’9.75" without shoes but is known for having really long arms as well (his wingspan measurement wasn’t available on draftexpress.com), so it gave them length in the front court. Plus, this is clearly more the exception than the rule. But definitely something to give the Jazz hope.
Right, from what I understand
Kanter has decent wingspan and length- as does Favors. So their respective heights of 6’11 and 6’10" aren’t as limiting for them.
I don’t think Kanter has it in him to be a great defender. He’s not going to lock down the post in the way a guy like Bogut, Howard or Noah can. But I think he will be serviceable and not a liability. To put it in comparative terms—Favors/Kanter will be a better defensive pairing all around than Boozer/Noah.
I'll take that
I’ll definitely take that if they end up being better, or even comparable to Boozer/Noah.
Support
I supported JV prior to drafting Kanter mainly because I felt he had less risk. He actually had game film you could review.
I feel Kanter has a higher potential that JV but he is still an unknown. In the long run they both will be good to great but Kanter has more potential. He is stronger, has an outside shot, and has some good developing inside moves.
I am not worried about his defense. He is fast/quick enough that he can play great defense. It is only a matter of getting him to focus on it.
you say you like favors but he isnt a center
but on your list of centers you put kevin garnett, well he isnt a center either
and is yonas valachuunis the dude that cant even come play right away? well why draft a guy thats gonna play in europe for a few more years until a contract is up, didnt we already do that with some guy?
look how that turned out, why wait for a player when we can get one, we need players now!
Garnett is 7 Feet
Garnett may not be a center, but he is 7 feet tall with long arms, so he can both protect the rim on D while still being quick enough to step out on pick and rolls (neither of which are qualities Kanter has). Plus, he’s in the conversation for defensive player of the year nearly every year. I think we can all agree that, at this point, that’s certainly not expected to be in Kanter’s future.
Contract a nonissue
The contract should have been a non issue for the Jazz. He can come over next season, and with the lockout, there may not even be a season this year……..so that shouldn’t have been a concern at all.
Kanter is a beast.
Coach Cal compared Kanter to Alonzo Mourning, who I would aruge was a pretty good defensive big man. JV gets compared to Bosh, because as he said he “doesn’t have a strong body.” Chad Ford said that he got out muscled all over the court in europe. So while he could become a good defensive big (and I think he will), at this point he isn’t developed enough to be the defensive stopper you are calling him.
Also almost every draft board had Kanter as the 3rd best player in the draft. Coach Cal said if he would have played last year he would have been the number 1 overall pick. I am one that thinks Coach Cal has a pretty good eye for talent.
Calling Kanter an undersized center is a joke. 6’11" is a center in the NBA. I also think it is so dumb when we talk about being undersized only in height. With his body he isn’t going to be pushed around, he will be fine. You could argue that JV is undersized because he is listed at 6’11" and 231 lbs. Andrea Bargnani is listed as an inch taller and 20 pounds heavier. But yeah Kanter, listed at 6’11" and 262, is the one that is undersized to play Center in the NBA.
Last point, since when is Pau Gasol a defensive center? That is like listing Allen Iverson as a distributing point guard.
I too was very encouraged by what Coach Cal had to say about Kanter – especially how he said he would take him over Knight, who also played on his team. But, you have to remember Coach Cal was his coach, so of course he is going to talk him up. Doesn’t do him any good to bag on his own players, so you have to factor that in when digesting his comments.
Kanter’s body is clearly one of the things he has going for him. He won’t have to put on weight to play in the league, which is one of the primary reasons he was deemed to be a safer pick than JV. But JV has been adding weight over the past year. I’ve seen him listed on several sites as being 240-245 now, with the frame to easily add another 15-20 poinds. But clearly is has to develop and he isn’t where Kanter is now. That’s part of the draft process though……not picking a guy who is the best now, but who projects to be the best. Most NBA big men added a lot of weight after joining the league.
Gasol definitely isn’t going to win any awards for his defense, but he’s a long 7 footer that can alter shots. But the key for him is that he’s playing next to Bynum, who is a defensive center. LA lost to Boston when Bynum was hurt and missed the finals, but when Bynum got healthy and played the next two years, LA won. The primary difference between the LA team that lost to Boston and the team that won the next 2 titles was having a healthy Bynum to plug up the middle.
Agree on Bynum.
I agree with the point that defensive big guys are important. I would say the only reason Boston lost to the Lakers a year ago was that Perkins couldn’t play in game 7.
I also think Kanter is not only better now, but will have a better career than JV. I think both of them will end up being similar level players at their peaks, I just think Kanter will good for longer.
JV should be fine weight wise
Joakim Noah is only 232 pounds. Weight is not necessarily a requirement to be good at defense. There are obviously a lot of factors that influences how a player plays and how good he is. I just don’t think JVs defense wil be so dominate that he was worth drafting over Kanter. Maybe if we didn’t have Favors I would think differently- I strongly believe Favors will be a defense anchor quality player, in which case a scoring big like Kanter is a great sidekick
Two
The Jazz now have two top 3 draft bigs. Odds are very high one of them is going to pan out and Favors looks like he is going to be pretty good.
That means Kanter is a free pass. Anything the Jazz get out of Kanter is going to be a big plus.
Great Bigs are hard to get and the draft is usually the only way to get them. The Jazz were not going to get one out of the dumpster and had not gotten one out of the non lotto picks.
Millsap is good but to short to be considered Great (at least yet).
The perimeter defense problems are easier to solve than the inside defense problems. Favors and Kanter should be an improvement inside over what the Jazz have had. They are also bigger.
That's actually part of the reason I don't want to dump Millsap
I think Millsap + Favors could easily be the frontcourt of the future for the Jazz rather than Favors + Kanter.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
I like Millsap as well, but.....
I really like Millsap as well. I think he brings a lot to the table and is a great fit on the Jazz. However, I think he is best suited to be the third or fourth big man on a team – perhaps coming off the bench as a 6th man. If he’s your starting PF, your team isn’t going anywhere. But if he’s coming off the bench, you could have a really solid second unit that will do a lot of damage.
With all the bigs the Jazz currently have on the roster, I can understand why they would consider trading him (he has value and a reasonable contract). The Jazz need to open up minutes for Favors and Kanter so they can develop, and if they can get something of value for Millsap (a solid small forward, or perhaps a good draft pick), I wouldn’t blame them for pulling the trigger. But there’s certainly nothing wrong with keeping him either.
I just watched the Serbia video
He looks very good, nice touch from midrange, plays with a lot of passion, good free throw shooting.
However, he also looked like he was playing against a bunch of unathletic slow short guys. I would rather see a video of the Lithuania-US game.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
serbia
a bunch of unathletic slow short guys
nice.
J.UST E.NJOY T.HIS S.HIT
This is Forty08.
by big_p.a.w.z. on Jul 15, 2011 8:00 PM MDT up reply actions
And my earlier comment should be "slow or short" guys
Serbia’s got really big guys, but the highlights are either of him going around their big slow guys or dunking on the short guys.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Check out this video on Enes Kanter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ktxSZocc9s
It shows some footage of Kanter and lists his stat line in key games- including stat comparisons to JV. In every head to head matchup shown in this video, Kanter not only outperformed JV but crushed him- in one game for istance. Kanter went 22 pts, 17 boards and 4 blocks compared to JVs 7 points, 8 boards. Another game he had 35 and 19 compared to JVs 14 and 5.
I'm glad the video description had all the text
The song and 2 highlights from the draft combine were driving me nuts.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Here's the text.
I edited it down a bit (it was really long) Again, this can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ktxSZocc9s
2007 u16 european championship, a year younger than most of the players in tournament , 24 mpg, 11 ppg, 10 rpg, bronze medal winner. bronze medal game performance 15 points, 17 rebounds. jonas valanciunas’ performance in the same tournament. stats: 2 ppg, 3 rpg
2008 u16 european championship, 23 ppg (top scorer), 16.5 rpg (top rebounder), %64 fg. jonas valanciunas 14 ppg, 11 rpg but mvp because lithuania won the title while turkey having bronze medal.
2008 double doubled every single game of u16 european championship. bronze medal game performance against france: 28 points, 20 rebounds
2008 u16 turkey championship, top scorer, top rebounder, mvp, final game stats: 46 points (%72, 26 rebounds against Efes Pilsen.
2008 u18 european championship, 2 years younger than most of the players in the tournament, 19.1 ppg (2nd), 14.6 rpg (1st), %66 shot percentage, all tournament team – center.
2008 u18 european championship, 26 points, 22 rebounds against russia. 22 points, 25 rebounds against israel. 31 points (13/14), 11 rebounds against Croatia
2008 a month later, another professional game against Besiktas (Iverson’s team), 6 points and 14 rebounds.
2008 Jordan Brand Classic International Game, Enes Kanter 22 P, 17 R, 4 B, Highest Score, Highest Rebound, Highest Block Numbers of the Game while Jonas Valanciunas had just 7 P, 8 R in the same game.
2009 World Colleges Championship: final game mvp 19 points, 24 rebounds, his college (Doga Koleji) wins the title.
2009 u18 european championship, 32 points, 25 rebounds against Serbia (tournament winner)
2009 u18 european championship, 35 points, 19 rebounds, 4 blocks against Jonas Valanciunas’
Lithuania, J. Valanciunas’ performance against Kanter: 14 points, 5 rebounds only
2010 nike hoop summit, breaking nowitzki’s record. 34 points, 13 rebounds in just 24 minutes
Great Video
That’s a great video – thanks for passing it along. Wish it showed actual clips from the games against JV, but that’s still great info. My one counterpoint is that Kanter is known as a guy who developed early (both his body and his game), whereas JV is more of a late bloomer and, supposedly, his game has come a long way in the past couple of years (and it looks like the last time they went head to head was two years ago). It’s certainly possible Kanter has improved as well, but it’s difficult to know since he hasn’t played. Hopefully that’s the case, though. The thread I posted in my article has a lot of back and forth about Kanter and JV’s past head to head matchup.
Here's a video of JV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzNugzv7_Uo
The thing that stands out to me about JV is that he is very explosive and athletic. This is just a highlight reel, but it is those skills that he seems to rely on. Kanter seems less athletic and explosive, but more refined and savvy.
That power and athleticism could transfer well to the NBA- but he also will be facing physically bigger and more athletically gifted players than he ever has before. His offensive success in the NBA relies on him either gaining refinement or continuing to be the most athletic guy on the court (which, I doubt he will be)
I think that is what makes JV somewhat of a question mark. Kanter’s offensive game is NBA suited- he doesn’t need to be faster or stronger than his opponent to score. Check out this video of an JV game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jvPl5-wRsE&feature=related Not a single bucket came from a jumpshot. Only a 2 or 3 came from him using any sort of post moves- and even then it was pretty truncated and basic.
In video I’ve seen, Kanter, for starters, shows a jumpshot. A good one, actually. Reminds me of the way Boozer pulls up to shoot. Kanter also seems to have either developed or instinctively understands positioning and post maneuvering well. He has a good sense of timing. I didn’t detect that as much with JV.
Of course I’m working off limited footage, nor did I scour for every minute of footage I could find. Also, in JV’s defense, he doesn’t need to break out skill when he’s head and shoulders above everyone else.
I will confidently say, however, that Kanter will be better offensively than JV. Defense—which seemed the primary point of your post anyways—is a different matter. Here, JV seems to set to be better.
Evidently, Jazz brass thought Kanter the safer pick. We’ll see how it pans out. We’re probably in for years of exciting head to head games between the two.
More Great Videos
Thanks again – this is great stuff. And I agree with you – Kanter is definitely more developed offensively right now and I think he will also be the better offensive player in the NBA. And if he ends up being at least serviceable on defense, perhaps he will be a better fit alongside Favors.
While I don’t think JV will ever be as good offensively as Kanter, I think his ability to finish, shoot free throws really well, and the potential that he will develop more, mean he definitely won’t be a liability offensively…..and could potentially be an efficient 14-16 point scorer in the NBA (shooting around 55+ from the field with mostly shots in the paint and 85%+ from the line). And my whole point was simply that if you combine that with his defensive potential (taller, more athletic/explosive, and, at least to this point, more drive and a better motor on that end), you have the makings of a guy who could be great and give the Jazz something they’ve never had – a 7 footer to clog the middle on d while still being a contributor offensively. There is more guessing with him than Kanter for sure, but I simply feel his potential was too much to pass on. But it’s a great debate to have and I hope it’s a debate we’ll be able to have throughout their NBA careers because they continue their past rivalry into the NBA for years to come.
Now if we can just get this stupid lockout resolved so we can actually have some basketball this year!
A few NBA players from the present, past and distant past
that Kanter reminds me of in some respects are Kurt Thomas (still in the league, but about the oldest player), Rony Seikaly and Wes Unseld. If he is some combination of those three players, I think he will have a solid career.
by Fesenko for President on Jul 15, 2011 9:37 PM MDT reply actions
I think we will have a better feel for who Kanter is after the Euro-championships this summer..
…If he gets burn. Same with JV. I think Kanter fits better with Favors though.
RAPTORS FAN HERE...
I just want to say that as a Raptors fan (who is thrilled that Valanciunas fell to #5), I am thoroughly impressed by the basketball knowledge in Utah- particularly on SLC Dunk. I’ve read all the comments in this post and having followed both EK and JV for the past 3 to 4 years, I can tell you that they both have tremendous upside and are both extremely hard workers. If they continue their work ethic, they will both be premier big men in the league. It’s rare that fans look at 2 players with different strengths and weaknesses and see how each of them fit best with their team, and I’m impressed that most of you have been able to do that quite well. JV is the perfect fit for a young Raptors team with a new defensive-minded coach and Kanter is going to be a great player and is an excellent fit in Utah’s system. Do I believe that Valanciunas is the steal of the draft? ABSOLUTELY. But in terms of who fits best in Utah, you guys probably got your man.
by Greg098 on Jul 19, 2011 7:27 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
I love when sports fans can cross the threshold of homerism and recognize there are passionate and knowledgable fans wherever you go. Thanks for the compliment to SLCdunk. I think the Raptors are in the same kind of position the Jazz are. Lots of potential but need to figure out what to do with it all. Best of luck!
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Kanter can rebound
He’s got good length and is a big body. Rebounding wasn’t up to par with previous years. Kanter can help with that, whatever he brings on offense and defense is a plus. Valinciunas doesn’t fit well with this team. We needed a banger and hopefully that’s what Kanter will bring
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
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