Use Only As Directed
by Jeffersap on Jul 18, 2011 10:10 AM MDT
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Products often come with warning lables cautioning the consumer to "Use Only As Directed" The simple idea is that products were made to be used a certain way, and using a product in a way not designed could have an undesired effect. The hope is that people instinctively understand that you don't- say iron your clothes while wearing the clothes. But some people just don't get it. Hence, "use only as directed" warnings.
"Use only as directed" can have applications in the basketball world as well. Let's look at a few examples of basketball "products" that are sometimes misused .
The Ford Taurus- aka Paul Millsap
I once saw a Ford Taurus hauling a boat or a trailer or something. 4 door sedans were not designed to haul things, especially heavy things. Now, this admirable Taurus was getting the job done- but what cost to the transmission and engine?
Paul Millsap is the misused Taurus. He simply had too big a load put on him last season. He thrived in the role as the 6th man spark. Now, he was successful as a starter. He got the job done, just as the Taurus pulled it's load. In fact, he did fairly well as a starte. rBut Millsap would be better served hauling his 4 passengers in a gas efficient manner off the bench as he did in the Boozer-Okur heydays, and let Favors start. He still would play about 30 minutes a game- it's not a minutes reduction. It's a role change. He needs to be our Lamar Odom, our third guy off the bench. Let's use him as directed.
OakLee Sunglasses- Al Jefferson
Have you ever bought those fake "Oakley" Sunglasses off a street dealer in New York? They are made to look like expensive Oakley's- but they aren't. Al Jefferson is an OakLee pair of sunglasses. A good substitute if you just want a pair of sunglasses, but not if you want the best. I had a friend who went to the Big Apple and was so proud on the deal he got on a "Gucci" watch--only the second hands ticked, and real Gucci's glide. Sure, he looks like the 20-10 guy who should be competing for spots on the all star roster. But the second hands on this Gucci are ticking, not gliding.
Al cannot be the featured scorer on a team. He certainly can't carry a franchise, like was asked of him in Minny. He isn't even suitable as the second option, like he was to D-Will. No, Al's role should be as the guy who comes off the bench for 20 minutes and just goes out there to score and rebound. Around the time we traded for him, the Mavericks were thinking of trading for him to bring off the bench. That is his role. A"Use Only as Directed" warning on Al Jefferson would caution a team to limit Al's ball time and playing time and use him as a sparkplug for maybe half the game. A better role for Al would be on a team like Thunder where he comes in for a few minutes to give Ibaka or Perkins a breather, and to help shift some scoring burden off Durant and WBrook. Let's not try to use him as a featured scorer for 35+ minutes a game.
The Old Pair of Jeans- Mehmet Okur
I almost always keep my old pairs of jeans. They may not look good enough to wear in a setting where I need to look presentable, but they are great if I have to do yard work, or paint or something else like that. They're still a good pair of jeans quality wise, they just don't "look" great.
Okur is our old pair of jeans. The injuries he has sustained will not ever allow him to drop 43 points on the Pacers again, but he still has a role, albeit a less glamorous one.
Memo will lose speed. His defense will be awful. He probably won't be able to do the Slow-Mo turtle crawls to the hoop. But his shot will be fine. HIs passing will be fine. His instincts and IQ will be fine. Memo is no longer our nice pair of starting jeans, but he still has great use as a 15 mpg backup center.
The Hiking Boots- the rookies
When you buy a new pair of hiking boots, you have to break them in before you go on a long hike, otherwise they will kill your feet on the actual hike. Burks and Kanter are the brand new hiking boots that need to be broken in.
It can be hard to break in new hiking boots. They don't quite conform to your feet yet- they're a little uncomfortable. You may have an older pair of boots that you are currently more comfortable- but, let's face it, the treading is worn off. But come hike day, if you don't break in those hiking boots you'll either be left with the treadless old ones or you'll get killer blisters with the new.
Simply, Burks and Kanter need to be "broken in" This can be done in a number of ways- summer leagues (in normal years), International play (for Kanter), D League, etc. But let's not let them rot on the bench. No, we shouldn't throw them in the deep end and say "Swim" (unless they show they can handle that early off), but let's not make the opposite mistake of giving them no burn at all. Just like the annoying task of breaking in hiking shoes, it needs to be done. Because Burks and Kanter are two of the guys we're going to be taking on that long hike- they need to be ready to handle the role without hurting our feet.
The coaches of this team need to carefully decide on the roles of our players. They need to keep in mind the future, even if it is at the expense of the immediate future. And most of all, they need to use our players "only as directed"
All comments are the opinion of the commenter and not necessarily that of SLC Dunk or SB Nation.
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Does that make Kirilenko a fancy Swiss Army knife that we only ever use as a bottle opener?
by El Aguacil on Jul 16, 2011 2:03 PM MDT reply actions 6 recs
Great Post
Basically agree with everything you said.
I absolutely agree with everything you posted here.
Which means it must be genius!
This also brings up two great questions for next year:
1) Can Millsap be used as a small forward?
All Jazz fans are familar with this question right now. If he can, than that settles a whole lot for the Jazz. Favors, Kanter, and Big Al can be the featured 3-Bigs rotation (and yes, I have been saying since last year Big Al is best suited coming off the bench), with Okur adding a few minutes here and there as health permits. Millsap can play the 3 and that puts Gordon at the 2. Perfect. I for one think Millsap can do it, but only time will tell.
2) Can Burks be used as a point guard?
This is the less talked about question, mostly because we still don’t know if he can play. But before we moved into the #3 draft, after the college season, I personally thought Burks should be the pick at #6 over Knight even. I know I am in the minority here. But one reason was, from what I saw, Burks has better passing vision then Knight, Walker, or Jimmer. If he can play the point, he can get a lot of minutes backing up both Gordo and Harris. And the beauty is this: Because Gordo can also facilitate an offense, maybe Burks can become the eventual starter at the point. That would give us a very, very, tall team. And when all your players are tall, having your point or shooting guard get beat of the dribble is less damaging, because players would be driving into a trio of Millsap, Favors, and Kanter. This is an experiment that needs some serious consideration this next year.
by Frank5 on Jul 16, 2011 4:00 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't believe the Jazz were very good last year and that all of the fall apart was predictable.
But I think that Sloan’s indecision to bench Millsap or Jefferson and start Fesenko was still a really bad mistake that could have helped the outcome of the season. I will always believe this. Fesenko needed more time on the court with the other offensive players to have the most impact. Especially when Jefferson and Millsap were struggling so mightily.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
What? Really?
Fesenko a starter over Millsap and Jefferson? I agree that Fes needed more minutes, but Starter minutes? Lower Jeffersap makes the argument of a starter test, and as much as I disagree with it, how many minutes do you think Fes sees on any playoff team out of either conference? I bet he gets minutes on 2 maybe 3 of those teams.
Clark's not crazy
Back before the Trade, the Jazz were terrible in 1st quarters. And the guy who was the worst was Al. He had the worst first quarter stats in the entire NBA (Hollinger wrote about it). Taking out Al and putting in Fes as a starter would have kept the first quarter O out of Al’s hands (if I remember, he lead the team in 1st qtr shots), give it to more effective players, but make the defense better.
It’s not an outlandish suggestion at all. Especially when you see how poor Millsap and Al were defensively.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
The thing about Fesenko
is that his sheer size changes games. It’s like someone planted an oak tree in the middle of the court. With playing time Fesenko could be a very effective help defender- and for that reason alone, I feel Fesenko could have a more important future for the Jazz along with Kanter than Al does. Crazy? I don’t think so.
I never said anything about starter minutes, I said that he should be a starter. Even if he only got 12 mpg, playing the first 6 of each half, would have helped the team to set the tone.
I love Jerry Sloan and will defend him as one of the great coaches of all time til I die, but his use of Fesenko, along with the entire front office, was shameful. There is no excuse for it. I don’t care if he hurt the team offensively, or if he missed free throws. His overall outcome on the team’s performance was almost always a net positive. We may have been worse offensively, but we were always more than better defensively to make up for it.
If we are going to hammer Fesenko for making the offense so inept, than we should all give equal hammering to the players who made the defense so horrendous, no matter what their offensive skill set was. Because Fesenko, even if it was only because he was a huge body and not due to skill, changed our defense for the much better. Almost always.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Yeah. One of my best, recent NBA memories was in the last game the Jazz played against the LA Lakers this past season, in which Fesenko hammered Kobe to the floor, on a good, clean, hard foul.
Think about how the Jazz could be helped, if Fesenko started every game (and every third quarter) and either hammered or blocked the other team’s star PG, SG or SF every time they attempted to drive down the key for a dunk, ala Mark Eaton. That could set the tone for a whole different ball game in a lot of cases—by avoiding having Kobe, LeBron, Dwayne Wade, Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, etc. from going off on the Jazz for 30+ points in any one game. And, with a little work on his 10-12 foot jumpshot and his foul shot, it’s possible he could help on the offensive end, as well.
by Fesenko for President on Jul 20, 2011 1:34 PM MDT up reply actions
1. No, this is not an experiment I want to make.
Especially when we have Hayward, Miles, Burks and Evans which are all potential better 3’s than Millsap.
2. Yes. He’s one of the better passing Sg’s in the league and has great ball handling skills.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
4 door sedans were not designed to haul things
You, sir, seem blissfully unaware of the Buick LeSabre.
We don't need 8 in the box. We have 52 in the box.
They were also made
to haul ass!
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Here is another one for you.
CrackShot Spackling Interior:
Fesenko:
Fill is holes and and is for interior use only. This is straight from the manufacturer, "This professional formula will not shrink and will not ‘flash’ paint." We know that he is huge and flashing across the paint has never been his strong suite. Side effects may include coach irritation and gastric distress.
Kinda disagree
Kanter and Favors are not ready to replace AJ and Millsap at this point. The Jazz will continue to start AJ and Millsap (if there is a season this year). Next year they might trade one of Millsap or AJ if Favors and Kanter have made enough progress.
In the mean time AJs game will improve (some) and Millsap will improve his outside shooting range and may add another inside move or two. Also Okur’s contract will expire and the new CBA will get in place eventually and the Jazz will know how much cap they have to work with.
I think you are under estimating AJ and Millsap over the next 2 years. They are going to make adjustments because they are forced to.
So far Millsap has been a disaster at SF (see his 82 game numbers at SF). That could change if he dropped 15-20 lbs to increase quickness?
Playing Fes instead of AJ or Millsap was never an option, primarily because Fes has no offense other than an occasional dunk or put back. Besides AJ and Millsap struggled due to a lack of outside shooting and congested paint. Fes does not fix the inside problems. He would sometimes be an improvement on defense but at the expense of offense.
I liked Fes but he had his shot and did not make the adjustments he had to. Kanter killed any chance of Fes coming back except as a bench fixture.
AJ Malone and efficiency
It might also be noted that AJ and Malone are identical on efficiency as rated by Per/usage rate (see efficiency article) at .81.
There are some things I would like to see AJ improve in his game. I was not thrilled when KOC traded for him. However, I think he is better than some of you suggest. And I think he will improve.
The Per/Usage ratio is interesting. It is not the end all of stats but it does a decent job of differentiating good and bad players.
Plus Big Al had a rating of .90 last year. That is Kareem like.
I agree with you. All Al has done since he got here was say the right things and improve. He played better as the year went on got better on D, led our team in points, rebounds, and blocks. He averaged a career high in assists and turned the ball over less often than any other center in the league. These numbers suggest that he did all of that with very good efficiency.
My two issues with Al are
1. How much time he handles the ball on a possession. He isn’t taking quick shots.
2. His defense.
I also think Favors and Kanter can be better than him. I wouldn’t want Al to get in the way of their developing games.
Then he should be ok then.
1. Quick shots aren’t a great thing that should be sought after.
2. His defense improved as the year went on and playing next to Favors will help Al on D. I think if Kanter and Favors are as good as we hope they are they Al will get in their way about as much as Robert Parish got into the way of McHale’s and Bird’s development.
1
The ability to quickly take a shot is something that is highly sought after (look at the noise made about Allen’s release time). Al lacks this currently, Jeffersap isn’t saying he wants Al lofting it in under 1 second every time he touches the ball and presuming that is mistaking his point.
Yeah, I more meant
that I didn’t like Al taking ten seconds or more just positioning himself in the post. Al isnt great at creating his own shot: he needs to develop the ability to quickly realize if he has a good shot opportunity and then take it, or pass out if he doesn’t. His constant positioning game does no one any good
Shooting Percentage
I would like to see AJ’s shooting percentage go and stay above 50%. I would like to see an extra rebound or two per game.
I would also like to see his defense improve but he is not likely to become much quicker. However, changing the defense so it funnels to the base line instead of the middle should help AJ on defense. If the perimeter D improves it take a lot of pressure off of AJ. If he plays with Favors that also helps. Millsap’s height can be an issue on help D.
An improvement on P&R is absolutely essential.
One of the biggest problems is AJ’s tendency to stop the flow of the offense. Corbin moved him closer to the basket and that seemed to help the flow and also how long it took him to position for shots.
That is one reason I think Corbin is going to be a good coach. He will modify the flex to fit the players instead of forcing the players to fit the flex. Sloan was more flexible than I give him credit for but he was also stubborn to a fault.
AJ will improve. I am not sure how much and in which areas. But his rebounding and passing should improve. His D may improve some. HIs ability to fit into the offense with the other players has to improve.
I also think Corbin will be better at utilizing favorable substitutions.
Over the years, some of Sloan’s substitution patterns absolutely drove me crazy. He would put the last five players on the bench in the game all at the same time, and then would drone on about how players needed to play well, if the Jazz were going to win. Earth to Jerry: your last five players on the bench are on the end of the bench for a reason—they are just not as good as your other players, and are incapable of playing well in most situations.
I also remember—I think it was the 1999 or 2000 season—that with 15-16 games left, the Jazz were tied with San Antonio with the best record in the West. Then, Sloan got into a routine wherein he would empty the bench at the end of the 1st quarter, and allow 5 substitute players to play almost the entire 2nd quarter. At the time he emptied the bench, the Jazz would usually either be ahead or at least tied. By the end of the 2nd quarter, the Jazz would be about 20 points down, and had a hard time catching up by the end of the game. I think the Jazz lost 9 out of the last 15-16 games, ended up 4th in the West, and then lost in the 1st round—primarily because of that stupid substitution pattern. Even I (as a non-NBA coach) could have figured out that I could leave my starters in for all of the 1st quarter and half of the 2nd quarter against that Jazz team, and sew up the game by half-time, because of Sloan’s stupid substitution pattern.
Even in the few games he coached last year, Corbin showed much more promise than Sloan ever did in making clever substitutions.
by Fesenko for President on Jul 20, 2011 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions
I disagree with this post
Well, actually I agree with the part about Sloan’s substitutions. I didn’t like his in game substitutions at times, though it is easier to remember the ones that didn’t work than the ones that did.
I thought Corbin would be better, but he was actually worse last season IMO.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 20, 2011 1:55 PM MDT up reply actions
+1
I still hold it against Corbin that he played Bell 45 minutes in MARCH.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Placing a decimal point between the 4 and 5 is an appropriate amount of PT for Bell
In all seriousness though, looking ahead to the future of the franchise, Corbin cannot play Bell so much that Hayward and Burks get little to no burn. It just cannot be that way.
I agree in general
though I have to agree with those pointing out that despite the vocal element to the contrary on SLC Dunk – Al is not anywhere near a bench player. Other than that I can get down with your assessments.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 18, 2011 1:22 PM MDT reply actions
I don't think Al would've started at Center for any of this past year's Western Conference playoff teams
To me, that says quite a bit.
Al just doesn’t have the game to carry a team, to be it’s #1 or #2 scoring option. That’s just not him. Now, he was value as a player. But not as one of a good team’s best players.
I don't understand how you can assess
a players value by whether or not he would have started on other play off teams. I mean if John stockton wouldn’t have started for the Lakers because they had Magic does that mean Stockton stunk?
I’m not trying to defend Al. I’m just saying I don’t really understand determining a players value based on what they would have done on another team. Especially cause teams run different offensive, have players with different strengths/weaknesses, etc etc.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
I wasn't saying that as a measurement of his value
merely pointing out that all those teams had/have a center that is better suited for their team.
Would he really start over defensive beast Emeka Okafor or Kendrick Perkins? Would the Grizz want to start him over Gasol next to Randolph? How could he get the starting nod over Nene or Bynum?
No, that statement isn’t an assessment of value, but an assessment of the reality that we shouldn’t look to him as our future starting center if we expect to seriously contend in this league. I do not believe Al could be the best or second best player on a good team. He’d be better off as an above average bench player, rather than an average starter. And why isn’t he an above average starter? Because his defense is awful and his offensive is decent but inefficient. He has the markings of a good 6th man- not a good starter for a serious team
I think you have a distorted view of reality.
We have seen a great post today on the downbeat that Al’s game is efficient. David Berri’s numbers were on the downbeat last week saying Al is actually a little undervalued.
Look Al isn’t Moses Malone, but the guy is good. He could have been on the Grizzlies instead of Z Bo this year and they would have been about the same team.
He had a lot better year than Martin, so he could have started in Denver.
He was healthy a lot more than Camby and as out of place as Perkins looked at times with OKC he may have been a better player there (though I think Perkins will learn how to fit in with OKC).
Dallas got Chandler as a consolation prize for not getting Big Al. Al is a heck of a lot better than Haywood, so he could have ended up starting in Dallas. He also would have started over Carl Landry and the Spurs would have loved to have him next to Duncan in the Playoffs.
Also look at the East. He is better than Joel Anthony, Carlos Boozer, Jason Collins, Jermaine O’Neal, Brandon Bass, Ronny Turiaf, Spencer Hawes, and Tyler Hansbrough. So when all is said and done the only team that there is no way he could have started for in last year’s Playoffs was the Lakers.
by BobbyD31 on Jul 18, 2011 3:28 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
That was kind of an awe-inspiring demolition..
well played sir.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 18, 2011 4:42 PM MDT up reply actions
A distorted view of reality?
Must you really resort to a personal attack to get your point across, or are you too insecure in your own argument and ability to present intelligently that you needed to resort to that?
At any rate Bobby, let’s look at a few things. One, as power forward, yes, the field would’ve been more open for Al to start one WC playoff team. Denver and NO without doubt. Some may argue OKC over Ibaka. But Dirk? Pau? Aldridge? Randolph? Duncan? I already presented my case for Center.
Al is good, yes this right. But where we differ is on degrees of how good he is. I look at the fact that it took him just over 16 shots to get under 19 points, and see an inefficient offensive player. He uses up way to much time with the ball on offensive possessions. I look at his porous defense and realize that while he may be contributing on one end of the floor, he’s bleeding us dry on the other end.
So no, Al isn’t a bad player. But I do not think he could be the best player on a championship team, or the second best player. He needs to be paired in the frontcourt with a defensive minded big. And most ideally, he would be a 6th man- not a starter.
Not a personal attack at all
You are the one who said " an assessment of the reality that we shouldn’t look to him as our future starting center."
I think that is a distorted view of reality. Nothing personal. I was just pointing out that you were saying that is reality and I feel that is a distorted view of reality that you were expressing. But yes I must be very insecure. Maybe I should get some help.
As I said part of the beauty of a guy like Al is he can play both PF and Center. So if it is next to Duncan or next to Nene, I think he would be an upgrade.
As for efficiency, you could say that you would like Al to be a more efficient shooter, great we all would. You can say that you wish he would get to the foul line more, great so would everyone. But to say that a guy that shoots the ball well above the league average and our team average, is inefficient is an overstatement. Also offensive efficiency is more than just shooting the ball. Al doesn’t turn it over. He has the lowest turnover rate of any center in the league. So keep calling him inefficient on O.
As for D, when the season was over and done with he actually led our team in defensive win shares. Which might be like leading the Mets in wins. But he still wasn’t as bad defensively as he is being portrayed. He struggles with the P& R and in covering for Millsap when Millsap is matched up against big PFs.
No one is saying Al needs to be the number one option for the team to win the finals. But lets call a spade a spade. Al is a quality big in the NBA and yes he could start for almost any title contender, even if it is a PF or Center.
I'd be willing to say that Al needs a shot next to the right froncourt player
He’s never really had someone ideal next to him. Maybe Favors can be that guy- Hollinger suggested as much in a chat a few months back. So perhaps part of my criticism of Al should be shouldered by the bad hands he has been dealt- maybe things would be different next to a defensive minded big. I don’ t know.
But as the Jazz are presently constituted he isn’t the right fit. Maybe next to a fully matured (as a player) Favors he could be. But I also think Kanter has better potential than Al, and I just don’t see Kanter getting the right level of playing time in a frontcourt with 5 guys who all can ball. What do you see Al’s future being with the Jazz (just out of curiousity)
I see Big Al as the Robert Parish of the team.
The guy that is a few years older and maybe not quit as talented as the other front court guys, but the crafty vet that can work in the post get buckets and rebounds and become a solid defensive big.Al’s numbers aren’t too different from The Cheif at age 26. Hopefully he will also improve his FG% going forward as Parish did. If Al can’t fill this role then sure get rid of him. But if he could settle into that role, then we can pair him with an athletic freak big man and a scoring rebounding banger, I think that would be the makings of a good front line.
I also see Kanter coming along how the Celtics brought McHale along. 20 mins a game as a rookie (what Coach Cal said he is ready to contribute right now) 28 as a soph and working his way into more mins just like McHale did. I don’t think it hurt McHales devlopement too much to play behind a couple of quality bigs.
Also we act like all of these bigs are a big problem. Remember even with Bird, McHale, and Parish the Celtics went and got Bill Walton to sure up their front court. That only resulted in the greatest NBA team I have ever seen.
Now do I think the Jazz are going to turn into the 80s Celtics? No. But I see how having a lot of talented Big men can work.
I would be fine if Kanter got 20 per game off the bench
I’m afraid it won’t happen.
And there’s a little difference between that Celtics team: Bird, McHale, and Parrish all started, while Walton came off the bench for only 19 minutes per game (limited because of so many injuries). Also, Walton’s strengths were rebounding and passing.
In our situation we have 4-5 players for two positions (rather than 4 for 3 spots). That’s where the numbers crunch starts happening. Now if Millsap turns out to be able to play SF well, then things will change some. But we’ll still have one more player to try to work in the rotation—and at least four of them will deserve more than 19 minutes a game within even one year.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Agree, that is why I hope Millsap can be move to 3 like Bird did in '86.
If Millsap can move from the 4 to the 3 like Bird did, then we are ok. If he can’t then he either needs to be our 6th man and play with Kanter next year off of the bench or go the way of AD when Malone came into his own. Either way it is still Big Al, Favors, and Kanter as our 3 man Big rotation of the future. Maybe Memo plays the role of Greg Kite this year, but he is the one that I don’t see how we keep long term. Which hurts me because I love the Money Man.
No offense, but a better example might be
Shane Battier, moving from the power forward to small forward. I don’t see much in common with Bird and Millsap.
All I am saying is
Bird started at PF from ‘80-’85 (in 85 he did start a little at SF) and in ‘86 he moved to the starting SF. Not saying Millsap has Bird’s talent. Just saying I hope Millsap can slide down a spot.
I suspect that this is the line of thinking that Jazz FO had in mind when the drafted Kanter
The kicker, like has been said, is if Millsap can be a 3. Otherwise, 3 bigs is a very solid rotations (we see this a lot in the league recently- Odom-Gasol-Bynum; Noah-Boozer-Gibson.; old Jazz Okur-Sap-Boozer; Perkins, Davis Garnett; Perkins, Ibaka, Collins, etc)
I have questions of whether Sap can be a full time 3- in this case who goes: Kanter (probably not, we just drafted him) Favors (almost definitely not) Sap or Jefferson to pare it down to a rotation of 3?
I guess we should just be glad that this isn’t a bad problem to have.
That's fine and all, except that Jefferson has one, maybe two more years with the Jazz.
They aren’t going to re-sign him. There is almost no scenario where they re-sign him. So your hope of him becoming like the Chief is sort of silly, because it’s the equivalent of the Chief playing with a bunch of rookies, other than one of the most talented and deep teams the NBA has ever seen.
The timing for Jefferson to progress with this team is all wrong. The chemistry is wrong. His game with the Jazz offensive is wrong and it’s either going to take a reinvention of the offense or a move from Jefferson to make it right.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
It would be silly to not resign him if he starts improving like The Chief.
Look at The Chief at age 26. He had made the playoffs once. Never shot more than 50.7% from the floor. He turned into a hall of famer that with a career 53.7% and become a lot better defender playing next to Bird and McHale.
I think you are smart and a very good poster. But the silly thing you said is that “it’s the equivalent of the Chief playing with a bunch of rookies.” Yes the Cheif did play with a bunch of young guys and rookies. When he started with the Celtics there was a rookie McHale and a Larry Bird that had just completed his rookie year. They did grow into one of the best deepest teams in NBA history. Could a core of Favors, Hayward, and Kanter grow into that? Maybe not, but here is to hope.
I also like the Cheif comparison, because he wasn’t the focus of the O. I think there is a good chance that Kanter and Favors could both become All Star talents and if they don’t fit with Big Al, then we can move him. But if he becomes a solid scoring option to go with those 2 like the Cheif did with Bird and McHale then we win.
Maybe the timing and chemistry feels wrong to you. Thats ok. I can see where you are coming from. But all Al did last year was improve. We give CJ and AK the benefit of the doubt all of the time. I would just like to see what Al can be with this group. Give him the benefit of the doubt this year. If he does become The Chief, we could become a really good team. So yes that is my hope.
You certainly make a very good case here. I think that Parish played in a time when it was still okay to be a huge center without speed, but...
Other than that, you have found a great example that the Jazz could pattern their development after. Hayward and Favors just better start getting as many or more shots than Jefferson the next year they play together, like Bird and McHale did.
This will be a big proving year for Big Al. Again.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
In 1980-1981, McHale's rookie season
Parish averaged 28 mpg while McHale got 20.1.
If Jefferson and Kanter split minutes in this manner, I would think that would be fine and a good thing. I’m just skeptical that Coach Ty would have the discipline to take Al out and not play him 35+ minutes, because, let’s face it, it’s tough for a coach- especially a relatively new coach- to give minutes to a promising rookie who makes rookie mistakes when there is an able veteran at the same position, albeit one with less potential. The presence of Millsap and Okur and the absolute need for Favors to play over 30 mpg further makes it unlikely that Al and Kanter would do a 28-20 split.
I hope you’re right, however, and that Parish-McHale is the model the Jazz have in mind.
It is hard for a coach
But Ty showed an ability to do this in the home game against the Wizards last year. Didn’t we finish the game with Evans, Millsap, and Favors? With Price and Hayward? I can’t remember, but it was a big deal that Al was on the bench. We probably could have won that game if Al was in, but Corbin let it ride, and this was when we still had a shot at the playoffs wasn’t it?
I am very suspicious of any stat that says Al was at Kareem level in terms of efficiency
I find it even more bogus when I saw how it was calculated. PER/(usage*100)? Those stats are measuring two different things. Why does dividing them make sense at all?
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Yeah, the stats put him on level with Karl Malone
something is missing in that equation. Doesn’t make any sense.
Clear
Jeffersap’s criticisms of Al are accurate. The biggest question is how much will he improve this coming year?
I would love to see AJ with a WP48 of .25 or higher. Both he and Millsap were about .16 which has been very consistent for AJ over the years. However, he really cranked at the end of the year.
Both he and Millsap were low on WP48 partly due to packed paint. It is a system and if the wings do not open up the inside the efficiency of the bigs suffers.
How good can AJ become with good wings?
It's true that Jefferson has never had elite wings, but to say that his wings have always been atrocious is unfair as well.
In 2008-09 when Jefferson experience his greatest statistical year, the Wolves were the 20th best 3 point shooting team in the NBA. But they were only one percent worse at shooting the 3 than the 12th best team. The truth is that Al Jefferson has always played with teams that were at least about average at shooting the three, other than one year in Minnesota. In 08-09 there were 6 T-Wolf players that shot 35% or better from the 3. But Jefferson shot the most shots per game of his career at 20 shots a game. And he shot 49%. And he got 1.6 assists per game. I don’t care what wings you are playing with, when you shoot 20 times and have the ball in your hands 60% of the time, it is inexcusable to only get 1.6 assists per game. You could get that accidentally.
You would have to try not to pass to your teammates. Teammates that included Randy Foye at 36%, Ryan Gomes at 37%, Mike Miller at 38%, Rodney Carney at 35%, Corey Brewer at 42%, and Bobby Brown at 39%, then you have no excuse for not using your awesome ability to draw double teams to get more than one assists per14 shot attempts. The next year was the same story, except that the T-Wolves added a 40+% shooter in Wayne Ellington.
Jefferson deserves all of the ribbings he gets about not knowing how to pass and get others involved. TWENTY FREAKING SHOTS A GAME AND ONLY 1.6 ASSISTS! 20 SHOTS A GAME AND PROBABLY NOT MORE THAN ONE A GAME IN TRANSITION! It’s a hard game to watch.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
To debate who would start over who is hard, because each team has different needs and roles that need to be filled.
Chandler was infinitely better than Jefferson at everything the Mavs needed him to do for them. The Jazz should get a share of the trophy from Dallas, because we did them the biggest favor of the offseason, by stealing Jefferson away from them so that they could get the much more effective and better fit for their team in Tyson Chandler.
But I do take exception with your “switching Jefferson and Z-Bo and getting the same result” comment. Some Jazz fans like to look at Z-Bo’s performance this year and say, “see that is what Jefferson could be for the Jazz.” But even Z-Bo won’t be this year’s Z-Bo again. He was dominant, and on both sides of the court. He was much more efficient offensively and much better defensively. I would bet that he comes back to his statistical average this season and the next time we play NBA ball, you can count on Zach Randolph being some measure of disappointing, along with the Grizzlies.
To point out, in that Dave Berri column you alluded to, it had Al Jefferson as contributing 8.8 wins to the Jazz and Zach Randolph as contributing 16.6. So if you switched Jefferson and Randolph, according to Berri, the Jazz and Grizzlies would have switched records. But anyway, it is more about fit and style of play, more than what a player can do in a vacuum, which Jefferson will always score favorably as a “vacuum player” because he can do some nice things. But he needs to find the right team if he ever wants to turn it into wins.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
That's an Odd thing to say
Al plays both PF and Center and you don’t think he could have started for any of the 8 teams in the playoffs in the west last year? San Antonio could have used his post scoring against Memphis. I bet New Orleans beats the Lakers with Al in the lineup instead of Landry. You don’t use him in Memphis because you have Zbo who is pretty similar. Same thing with the Lakers, and yes, Dallas too.
The problem is that he isn’t a defensive Center, but he works just fine as a scoring Power Forward. It fits with your article, He’s a square peg, and we had a round hole of him. I think next to Favors next year that a lot of his weaknesses will be covered and as a 2nd option he’d be fine on offense.
The big problem is Al as a PF
was a total disaster defensively. I mean Millsap looks bad, but Al’s numbers were horrific.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
You know bettter than that.
Can Al play all night every night at PF? Not with who we would have had to play at center. Look at past years. Al has been able to defend PFs just fine. In a lot of cases better than Centers. So I wouldn’t say that the numbers are that bad. If you take just the 5% of the PF he played last year, then yes he didn’t look good, but you know that you need more information to get a better sample size to give you real useful information. If you look at the last few years of the data, he is ok at PF.
This is why we can’t put too much stock in small sample sizes. Because if you look at Millsap’s Center numbers, he should be one of the best defensive centers in the NBA the last few years. But do you really think that means he can defend centers? The sample size was far too small. The matchups were those that allowed us to use him there. It is all realative.
Al Jefferson has never played on a team that held their opponents to less than 110 points per 100 possession, which is a horrible stat for him.
And it’s not a coincidence. I have always said, and will continue to do so, that Jefferson kills a team defensively, not in the halfcourt, per se, but in transition. He is unable to get down the court far too often in a game, giving up 8-10 free points. The Jazz went from being a slightly better than average defensive team to a bottom league defensive team and from an average transition defensive team to one of the worst in the league. The reasons for both of these were the same: Al Jefferson’s inability to get back on defense. Five more points per 100 possessions the Jazz gave up this year. That’s bad.
He has always been slow, but go back and read some criticisms of his game even during his rookie year. Slow and underconditioned, which is one thing we heard time and time again from coach Sloan this year. Jefferson was out of shape. We can all get excited about his offseason conditioning now, but I’ll believe when I see it. He has difficulty running the floor. This won’t ever change.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Which is why he's a really bad fit at PF
C’s in today’s league are slower, and there are much fewer who are real big offensive threats. And Al struggled with them. Put him against the quicker, more agile guys at PF who can generally score from a far greater range from the hoop … it could get really bad.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Here is my question: Why is it okay to say that Jefferson isn't a bench player, but Paul Millsap is?
The way I see it, they were neck and neck in PER and really equal offensive players for the most part. Millsap was a much more efficient scorer and assister, but Jefferson was a better rebounder and shot taker. By all accounts, they were both really bad defensively. It’s hard to say which one struggled more defensively, but I think it is fair to say that they struggled about as equally defensively as they were equal offensively. Millsap, because he was small, Jefferson because he is so slow.
But it’s Millsap that should be the sixth man and Jefferson should start alongside Favors. Why? If your answer was, “because of length” then I think that is unfair and probably the answer most of you would give. Why are we so hung up on length? Because of the Lakers’ length killing us for a bunch of postseasons. But the Lakers aren’t the enemy anymore. If we had just lost to the Mavericks or OKC or Heat 3 times in a row, due to inability to guard the dribble penetration, we would be calling for more speed on defense to make defensive rotations. But right now, we are obsessed with length, so Jefferson is starting material and Millsap is not, even though their benefit to the team is really equal.
Why couldn’t Millsap and Favors work as effectively as Jefferson and Favors? Favors isn’t slotted into the power forward role. He’s as hybrid of a big man as we will ever have.
But if there is more to the answer of why Jefferson is a starter and Millsap is not, other than height and length and size, I would like to hear it.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
I think our future frontcourt could definitely still include Millsap
What if Favors or Kanter ends up only being backup caliber or one of them blows a knee or something? We’d be stupid to move Millsap too early. Millsap has improved every offseason and I believe that the trend will continue for the next 3-4 years.
There are also questions with chemistry. What if Millsap works really well with Favors on both ends of the floor, better than AJ or Kanter? It’s not always so cut and dried to look at individual players’ abilities or physical attributes. Sometimes certain guys just work really well together. Back in the day, I thought AK, Brewer, and Harpring played off of each other really well, but they don’t look like they’d be that great together on paper.
As things stand now, from a team success standpoint, I’d rather see Millsap and Favors in the starting lineup than Favors and Jefferson.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
The rest of our roster will be a factor.
I think Favors and Al would be more interchangable than Millsap and Favors. So Favors wouldn’t have to defend the center if it would help us more to have him defend the PF spot. I think against say Dallas, I would like to see if Favors can hold his own against Dirk and I don’t want to worry if Millsap will be able keep Chandler off of the boards. I also think Millsap and Kanter could fit together better with the second unit early on than Kanter and Al. But we don’t know. I still hold out hope that Millsap can be a 3 and start there.
I think it does come down to the fact that we really don’t know how these guys will fit together, but Al is bigger than Millsap and as you said length has been something that has hurt us in the past. If you don’t feel it is fair to prefer taller players I don’t know what to tell you. This is a league that employs guys that are tall. There is a reason Fes has a job playing basketball. Is it fair that Ronnie Price plays 1000% percent harder than Fes, but Fes is more sought after. This isn’t a fair league.
I'm not talking about fair. I'm talking about what is right and what is most beneficial to the team.
But we will have this conversation again when the Jazz are getting torched by the Thunder and Mavs in the next 2 years.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
You said it would be "unfair" to say to start Al over Millsap because of length
All I was saying is that is the reason to start Al over Millsap. All thing being pretty even, which you even pointed out they were, most teams would go with size. Remember, that is the reason we took Williams over CP3.
I hope The Mavs age in dog years and The Thunder have a blow up between Durant and Westbrook, then we will have a shot.
The funny thing is height and size are the only things Al has over Sap
Paul’s scores more efficiently, has much more versatility on his shots and better post moves, he assists more, sets better screens, does better off-ball movement, steals more. Two things Al does better (rebounding and blocks) are very related to his height — seriously, give Paul the same size and he’d probably be doing the same or better.
Such a shame that he couldn’t have grown about 2 more inches.
Honestly, Millsap would be a dream 6th man, chipping in 28-30 minutes off the bench, playing alongside either Favors or Kanter in the post. I think Paul would be better in this role than Al.
I only hesitate because I seriously question whether Millsap will be okay with a demotion. But if he can buy in — then Paul is the guy to keep.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Al's TO's are really, really low
It has to be acknowledged.
But Paul was hardly a TO-machine. His 2 per 36 minutes put him in the best 5-10 among PF’s.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I agree on most points
I wouldn’t say that Paul has better post moves though. Paul really doesn’t have post moves. He faces up and takes guys off the dribble. Al has some of the best post moves (which is why he gets so many shots with limited athleticism) in the game.
by davidthecomposer on Jul 20, 2011 1:51 PM MDT up reply actions
I guess I should have written it differently
Paul uses his post moves to get him better shots closer to the basket. While Al uses dynamite footwork and moves to get worse shots from further away than when he started.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Al doesn't always give up ground
He’s got some really nice moves to gain advantage, but he does end up moving further out way too often, leaving a void in rebounding for missed shots, among other problems.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Well written and kudos - A for creativity.
But as to Big Al disagree with you completely for many reasons already mentioned.
Kanter will sit a year and see Fesenko minutes and it will be the right thing to do.
don't be hatin' on my syntax
"why so seeerious?"
"oh ya mary's - stop being so sensitive!"
Right- both those guys never really got their shot
Fesenko should have been our Omer Asik. But he never got to play- even this season after a great preseason and the Denver series the year before, he didn’t get to play.
Koufous, I believe, was a good worker. Yet, never saw daylight.
Enes Kanter has more potential than either of them. John Calipari says he could’ve been the 1st pick, and Cal is a guy who knows his talent when he sees it. Are we willing to not only waste our third pick by turning him into a benchwarmer, but also render even worse the D Will trade?
If Kanter is going to be a bust, I’d rather Kanter be a bust because he proved it rather than have him be a bust because he never got a chance to prove he wasn’t.
It did work with the Koof:
He didn’t hurt the team by being on the floor and he got to demonstrate that he doesn’t have what it takes to see long minutes in the NBA. Sorry, Yucca.
The Games he started in the regular season
He played pretty well, look at 82 Games for his stats as a Nugget, that’s not turrible.
I don't know why the Jazz gave up on him so fast
He was very young and very cheap. Needed to bulk up and get more physical down low, but he was showing progress and looked like he could be a serviceable backup center. Good midrange game, decent defense/rebounding against 2nd team centers.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Yeah, I'm wondering if he wasn't physical enough
He’s 7 feet tall and a good 265 pounds- so he’s fairly big.
Possibly, he never got a real shot, always being behind OKur here, several bigs in Minny and Nene and Birdman in Denver.
This is what makes me so scared for Kanter. What if he gets the KOOF treatment? ugh.
Koof
Koof was a calculated risk that fell to the Jazz. They never worked him out. They just drafted him and hoped he would develop. He played well as a rookie and then never made the adjustments he had to make. Sloan liked the effect of Fez on the D so Koof got bumped down in the pecking order. That killed his confidence.
Kanter is a 3 pick. The Jazz are going to make sure they don’t waste that investment. Kanter knows his role is to replace one of the older expensive bigs in a couple of years.
So why not keep Koof and let him develop?
Instead, the Jazz picked up Elson and kept Fes, then didn’t really play either of them. I guess part of it is that I just don’t understand the general disregard to player development displayed by the Jazz.
Koufos looked reasonably good in the playing time he got for the most part, particularly early in his rookie year. Why not just get him in a regular routine of playing time, even if it’s 10 mins every other game, alternating with Fes? Why leave him to wonder if he’ll ever get in another game? The Jazz ended up signing Cousin and actually playing him some because they got so desperate.
Why not just keep Koof instead of picking up Elson? It didn’t sound like Minnesota really wanted Koufos, they just took him b/c the Jazz wanted to salary dump. And honestly, that would have been fine with me as long as they didn’t pick up Elson AND re-sign Fes. Just keep Koufos, and re-sign Fes.
It’s definitely easier to see in hindsight, but I was curious about the moves at the time too. Back then though, the Jazz were thinking short-term veteran presence > developing youngster w/ some potential, for a run at a championship, back in ante implosion times.
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100& agree with this. And hope this changes
I guess part of it is that I just don’t understand the general disregard to player development displayed by the Jazz.
But even with those numbers
He wasn’t good enough to crack Denver’s playoff rotation. He couldn’t get meaningful time in Minn either. I would be shocked if he is in the NBA in 3 years.
I think he will be
He’s like 21, isn’t he?
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I don't think Minnesota is a valid argument
Wasn’t Kevin Love coming off the bench at the beginning of the season? Kambis’ rotations were abhorrent.
And he came into Denver after the All-star break and was trying to get minutes over Nene, one of the best center’s in the playoff’s, and fan favorites Anderson and Martin, I just don’t hold that against him.
I would have much rather had him this year than Fes.
Nope. Kevin Love started every game he played last year.
My point was that he has not got any real time with any team. Above it was looked at that he has become a contributor when he got away from the Jazz.. Look the Koof hasn’t got mins for 3 teams now.
He showed a lot of promise as a rookie, but he looked like he got worse as time went on. If he can’t get playing time in Minn or Denver, where can he go to get it?
Darko is still in the league so there is hope for the Koof. Maybe he would be good in Miami. All I am saying is I could see him going to Europe to get some PT and not ever coming back,
Oh, ok, I could see that
But I don’t think he’d choose that. I think he’d only do that if he couldn’t get an NBA contract.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
If you let a guy you spent the
3rd round pick for sit on the bench and take Fes minutes. Jazz nation should have a very long leash and low expectations for Kanter. If he isn’t given time to develop we could see the same kind of up and down admiration we’ve seen through CJ’s career. Which is a damn shame.
That should be said for all our rookies and sophs.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Minutes
I think Corbin will do what he said. Every minute will be earned. Further, KOC views players as assets. He is going to keep AJ and Millsap and Favors and Kanter until he gets the right deal. Who goes depends on the deal, money and fit among the remaining 3.
How do you earn it?
With hard work? Efficiency? Production? That’s where the problem falls. Yes Al and Paul can both give you a 20 points 10 rebound game on any given night….
But that’s not long term thinking. I’m fine with rewarding hard work and strong fundamentals, but you have to measure the cost of doing such.
You have to give Favors and Kanter and Burks and Hayward and Evans a leash. They’re going to make mistakes, they are going make more boneheaded plays then fantastic ones, it’s gonna be ugly. But at the end of the day, if they are working their ass off….. Sometimes you have to reward potential over results.
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
"I think he just said, 'Oh my Gosh,' or whatever they say in Provo."- ESPN talking about QB. Max Hall after BYU defeated third ranked Oklahoma (2009).
MonSTARZ forever!
Balance
AJ and Millsap cost a lot more than Favors and Kanter. Sometime over the next 2-3 years the higher cost players will get moved unless the low cost players just can’t replace them or do not fit the rest of the team.
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