By Winning Games Now, Jazz Lose in the Long Run
by FireKOC on Jan 11, 2012 10:59 PM MST
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PrintThe most blasphemous thing any fan can do is cheer for his team to lose, but that is exactly what I'm advocating for the Jazz this season. I know most of those who read this will disagree, but if the long term goal for the Jazz is to win a championship, then winning this year does the team far more harm than good.
While it has been fun watching the Jazz overcome its slow start, win some games and take LA to the wire, each win the Jazz earn takes it farther from the ultimate prize. Every real NBA fan knows that the worst place a team can be is right in the middle. You want to be either competing for a title or competing for the top pick in the draft and hope you end up with a superstar who can lead you to a title. But by continuing to play guys like Raja Bell, Josh Howard, Paul Millsap and especially Al Jefferson, the Jazz are heading down a clear path to no-man's land. As constituted, the best the Jazz can hope for is a low playoff seed and a first round exit. But there is also a very real chance the Jazz still won't make the playoffs. So what good does this outcome do for the future of the Jazz? Especially on the backs of the veterans while the young guys wallow on the bench as they did against LA tonight?
It is clear that the future of the Jazz is not Raja Bell, Al Jefferson, or Josh Howard. Yet each of these players is taking valuable minutes from Favors, Kanter, Hayward and Burks. While there is certainly value in developing young players in a winning environment, it is far less valuable if those players are watching from the bench. Sure, the Jazz will lose a few more games this season if it plays Favors and Kanter more minutes at the expense of Jefferson and Millsap. But is that such a bad thing? Losing more games now will give the Jazz a higher draft pick in this year's draft (widely considered to be one of the best drafts in years). If the Jazz lose enough, they could add another piece to a team that legitimately could compete for a title in 3-5 years. A player such as Michael Kidd-Gilchrist or Harrison Barnes would be perfect for the Jazz. But if the Jazz win too much, he or other valuable players will be long off the board when the Jazz finally pick and we will be stuck with another Kirk Snyder, Kris Humphries, Ronnie Brewer, or Curtis Borchardt.
The other benefit of playing the young guys, even at the expense of losing games, is that it will accelerate their development. There is no substitute in the NBA for game experience and the only way to truly develop Favors, Kanter, Hayward and Burks is for them to play. The more they play now, the better they will be in the future.
Oklahoma City drew the map, now the Jazz simply need to follow it. OKC clearly lucked out getting Durant, but it was also very smart in its development approach. Durant's rookie year involved a lot of losing, but that allowed them to land Westbrook. The next year also involved a lot of losing, but that enabled OKC to get Harden. Each of them played significant minutes early in their careers and now those three are the foundation of a title contender. OKC developed its young players while collecting assets and now it will be a legitimate title contender for the next several years.
We don't yet know if the young Jazz players have what it takes to lead the Jazz to a title, but the only way we will ever find out is if they play. And if playing them also enables the Jazz to land another key piece to a title contender, all the better. The young guys have clearly shown flashes of greatness and have a shot to develop into something special given time on the court, but by playing the vets now to chase wins this season, the Jazz are doing serious damage to its chances to win a title down the road.
All comments are the opinion of the commenter and not necessarily that of SLC Dunk or SB Nation.
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Look out ... the wolves will be salivating
We don’t yet know if the young Jazz players have what it takes to lead the Jazz to a title, but the only way we will ever find out is if they play.
This to me has always been the most true statement in the world about this team. I think the season will be a waste if we don’t have some idea of how good all four kids can be.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Couldn't agree more......
It’s one thing if Jazz are legit title threats, but they aren’t, so even if Ty insists on playing the vets, why not at least cut their minutes some? Play Jefferson 28-30 minutes a night and give those extra 6-8 minutes to Favors/Kanter? My favorite game of the year was the Philly game because we really got to see what Favors could do with big minutes and without the offense running through Jefferson. Would LOVE to see more of that this year.
First off, calm down. If memory serves me correctly, we started last season exceeding expectations only to fall on our faces by the end of the year. I suspect that same thing will happen again this year and we will be back in the lottery.
Second, I think it is important to create a culture of winning for our young players. Look at it from the point of view of the players. If you’re a young kid trying to make your way in the NBA, playing in Salt Lake City is probably on the bottom of your list of places to play. They might not like it, but they will certainly put up with this small market because they are trying to establish themselves in the league. If you spent four or five years in a small market getting your ass kicked every year, how badly would you really want to stick around once you become a free agent? Yeah, I understand playing our vets a lot will slow the progress of our young guys, but I am okay with that if I feel like it’s going to help the young guys enjoy playing here.
The bottom line is that winning sucks, and no one is going to stick with an organization if they feel like we will never be competitive.
Can anyone complain about the time that Hayward is getting?
Isn’t he top three in minutes? A quick check of 82 games shows me that Hayward is third in % of minutes, with Millsap getting the most. Favors is gettting 44% of the minutes which puts him at 5th. Kanter is getting 29% of minutes, and Burks is getting 22%, is that really a bad distribution? Based on what I’ve seen from all these players how many more minutes do they really need?
My issues are more with the bigs
Agree on Hayward. He is playing plenty, especially if he keeps shooting and playing as passively as he has the last couple of games. But I would like to see Favors and Kanter playing more, especially in a game like last night where Big Al was struggling so much against the Lakers bigs. Neither Favors nor Kanter would have been any worse offensively and both would have been huge upgrades defensively. Favors has had two 20-10 games this year (counting preseason), both of which came during 2 of the 3 games Big Al didn’t play this year. I don’t think there is any way Favors could keep that up all the time, but I think we would see a lot more out of him if he played more, particularly if he got more minutes where the offense ran plays for him.
I think Favors and Kanter
Would have both been much worse offensively than Big Al.
by JoeBountiful on Jan 12, 2012 12:54 PM MST up reply actions
It is easy to point to the Thunder, but look at everybody else that has tried that strategy.
It hasn’t work for the Clippers, the T’Wolves, the Wizards, the Grizzlies, etc.
The Clippers have been doing that strategy about their entire existence, but lets look at them from 1997 when they made the playoffs and got swept by the Jazz. (I could go back more but won’t) Their best player was Loy Vaught and they made the playoffs. The next year Loy Vaught got hurt 10 games into the year and they played big minutes for 3rd year pro Lamond Murray 2nd year guard Brent Barry, 22 year old big man Lorenzen Wright, 3rd year guards Darrick Martin and Eric Piatkowski, and 21 year old Maurice Taylor. Rodney Rogers was in his forth year and was the only guy on the team with more than 3 years experience that played over 1300 minutes. So that core as you would suspect finished with 21 wins and ended up getting the first pick in the next draft.
Welcome to town Michael Olowokandi. That year they also added rookie Tryone Nesby and Brian Skinner along with 22 year old Troy Hudson. They only played one guy over 30 years old (Sherman Douglass) over 20 minutes a game. They had talented young big men Olowokani and Maurice Taylor leading the team in minutes per game. With Nesby, Murray, Piatkowski, and Lorenzen Wright as the next most played players. They also finished 9-41 and but their young guys got the important minutes that would put them ahead of those that were playing half the minutes on winning teams.
The next year they added the 20 year old Lamar Odom and second year pro Dereck Anderson. The players with the 5 most minutes were all under 25 and of the 9 guys with the most minutes played that year only Piatowski was over 25. Yet they only won 15 games and got their coach fired.
The next year they lost 23 year old Maurice Taylor to the Rockets in free agency. Taylor had been the teams leading scorer the year before, but they replaced him with a young group of Corey Maggette, 21, Darius Miles, 19, Keyon Dolling,20, and Q Richardson, 20. With this core group and big minutes for the 26 year old Jeff McInnis they got all the way to 31 wins.
The next season they traded their lottery pick and Brian Skinner for Elton Brand. Brand McInnis, Q-Rich, Lamar, Maggette, Olowokandi, and Darius Miles gave them a young core that played pretty well and got them to 39-43.
The next year they brought in Andre Miller and ended their run with Darius Miles to help them try to get into the playoffs, only to have Brand, Maggette, Odom, Olowokandi, and Q-Rich to all miss a lot of games and they fell back to 27-55.
Stop me when they have tanked enough years to get enough lottery picks to be a contender.
The next year surprisingly Andre Miller, Olowokandi, and Lamar Odom didn’t resign, but they added Chris Kaman and won 28 games. I can’t believe that Lamar and Andre couldn’t see how this young core would have come together.
The next year they traded the draft Pick that became Emeka Okafor for Shaun Livingston and Lionel Chalmers and won 28 games.
With Shaun Livingston and Quinton Ross here to provide help the Clipps win 37 games.
The next year the Clipps decided to spend and go get some vets, a 36 year old Sam Cassell and a 30 year old Cuttino Mobley to join the mainstays of Brand, Kaman, Maggette, and Livingston. This team made the playoffs and were actually the best team in LA. Their 47 wins and first round series win over the Nuggets is the best the franchise has ever done in LA. Surprisingly it happened in a year that they added vets to mix rather than running with just the young guys. Who knew?
The next year with Cassell missing a lot of time they fell back to 40-42.
Then Elton Brand goes down the injury the following year and they fall to 23 wins.
They land Eric Gordon and DeAndre Jordan in the draft and bring in Baron Davis after losing Brand and Maggette. The team wins 19 games.
They draft Blake, he gets hurt and they win 29 games.
They Draft Aminu and Eric Bledsoe to add to their young core of Blake, Jordan, and Gordon and then trade Baron and the number one overall pick in the upcoming draft for Mo Williams and win 32 games.
This year they trade Gordon, Aminu, Kaman, and the T’Wolves number one pick for CP3 and bring in Billups and now look like they will be a playoff team.
So really the team that has tried the just go with the young guys and add picks strategy since the beginning of time hasn’t won anything with that stratgey. But they won one playoff series when they went away from that strategy and put vets around their young guys. Now doing it again this year they have another chance to make the playoffs.
So you really think just letting the young guys go and let the team tank is the strategy that would be best for our team long term?
by BobbyD31 on Jan 12, 2012 12:43 PM MST reply actions 4 recs
Great post
now how about looking at the eight to ten other teams that are consistent lotto teams.
by JoeBountiful on Jan 12, 2012 1:04 PM MST up reply actions
rec'd for truth.
yeah, the thunder way works great if you land Kevin Durrant. If you don’t, then you are constantly playing young guys AND losing.
If you like my comments, please visit my blog @ nationofsportsdomination.blogspot.com
by BigBenSportsGuy on Jan 12, 2012 1:40 PM MST up reply actions
You make some great points, but.....
The reason the Clippers were so bad for so long as because they made bad picks and didn’t take advantage of their opportunities. Every time they made good picks, either those players developed and they had a run or they were able to trade those players for assets that helped them. Minnesota has also drafted terribly (Wes Johnson over Cousins, Flynn over Curry). Sure, if the Jazz blow it on their draft picks while going young, then they will stay bad. But bottoming out worked out okay for San Antonio, Cleveland, Miami, OKC, and others. Those teams may have all lucked out in the lottery, but, other than Cleveland, they made other smart moves to surround their stars with talent. Cleveland lost Lebron, in part, because it failed to put good players around him.
We haven’t seen enough from the young guys to know if any will be an all-star, but Favors, at least, clearly has that potential. If he develops into that type of player, the best shot for the Jazz to keep him long term and win is to surround him with the best team possible. Jefferson, Bell, Howard, etc. are not part of that future. The best way to put players that are next to him is with high draft picks. They can either use those in trades (such as what LAC did to land Brand) for players that compliment him, or simply draft players. Not all of the lotto picks will pan out, but if 2-3 do, the Jazz won’t be down for long and they will be loaded with assets that can be used to fill holes and potenitally put together a contender.
Actually most of the Clippers picks were considered good picks.
That is part of the point with banking on the draft. There are no guarantees that it will pan out.
You also mentioned San Antonio which is more along the lines with my point. Robinson got hurt and the Spurs had an awful year and ended up lucky getting the top pick in the draft and got Duncan. Well by your measurements they should have started complete rebuilding mode right then, because Robinson, Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, and Sean Elliot were old players and not in the teams future. By the logic you are using the Spurs should have traded Robinson for a couple good young players and moved the rest for picks to make room for Duncan. Instead they mixed young and old and won a few titles. Miami won their title by adding Shaq through a trade, so they are very different from what you are suggesting.
So even in the examples you give of it working it still comes back to OKC being the best example and there are a lot more examples of teams building without just waiting for the young guys to get good by playing them a ton.
There is a huge difference between a pick being “considered” a good pick and the pick panning out. The fact remains, the Clips made the wrong picks because those players didn’t pan out, even if they were considered good picks. Certainly its a crap shoot with draft picks and you never know how they will turn out, the more high ones the Jazz have, the better the odds that 2-3 of them will pan out.
As for San Antonio, that is completely different because Robinson wasn’t standing in the way of Duncan’s development. Duncan was getting minutes and offensive opportunities alongside Duncan. Plus, I think even you would admit there is a huge difference between Robinson and Jefferson. If an all-time top 10 center was in front of Favors on the depth chart, I wouldn’t be nearly as anxious to see him moved. Further, none of the other players you mentioned were standing in the way of Duncan either, so of course it made no sense to trade them and I wouldn’t have advocated that.
The best example of what I am advocating might be Minnesota and your boy Big Al. The primary reason Minny trade away Big Al for next to nothing was to open up opportunities for Love. Even though Love was getting minutes while Al was there, he wasn’t getting offensive opportunities because, like with the Jazz, things ran through Al. Then, as soon as Al is out of there, Love becomes a borderline superstar. The only way we will ever know that about Favors/Kanter is if they get a chance to do it. They have both shown enough in their limited minutes that they can compete and hold their own in the NBA and they have also shown flashes of great potential. But they will never realize it playing behind Big Al.
I agree Robinson is better than Jefferson, but Jefferson is younger now than Robinson was then.
The Spurs still felt like Robinson could help in the future. But the Spurs played to win and Duncan and Robinson both helped them win. So if Big Al and Josh Howard help our team win, then I am fine with them playing.
Look at the Celtics. The didn’t get rid of the Chief just because he played in front of the younger McHale. They just added the players together that helped them win.
So point out how smart the T’Wolves were to get rid of Big Al for a couple of Picks that might amount to nothing to open up time for Love, yet you don’t mention the fact that Kevin Love hasn’t signed an extension and you hear some talk that he wants to leave when he gets the chance to play on a winner. So if they don’t lock up Love and he walks and they traded Jefferson for nothing plus they don’t even have their first round pick this year, how is that a good example of what to do?
Oh and I agree 100% with what you said about the draft picks which is why I don’t want to put all of our eggs in that basket.
There is definitely risk with putting all your eggs in the “draft basket.” Especially this year’s draft. While it is very deep, there may not be any sure thing, superstar type players in it. That said, I still believe it is the Jazz best chance of landing a major talent because they aren’t getting any great FA’s to come here and they would have to pay a hefty price in a trade to add real talent, especially young talent on an affordable contract.
And I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing to play the vets, as long as it isn’t at the expense of developing our young guys. Especially when they have shown they can more than hold their own on the court. Celtics didn’t need to get rid of the Chief because him and McHale could coexist ont he court (same as Duncan/Robinson). The primary difference with Big Al is he doesn’t mesh as well with the young guys and is taking minutes from them.
Agree with everything you said on the draft, but don't think you understand that McHale
was 26 the first year he played over 30 minutes a game. I can see by your name that you are not a patient person and the fact the you want the young guys to play lots of minutes now, but give them time. Stockton was 25 when he first averaged over 30 mins a night and he seemed to develop ok.
When Jazz play front line of Favors, Al, and Millsap
Then you can say the situation resembles the Celtics.
When Al has a crummy game, yet Favors only gets 12 minutes, it sure looks like Favors will NEVER get the PT as long as Al is on the team.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I wish they would.
Watching the way Millsap play Rudy Gay against the Grizzlies should shut up all of those who said that Millsap can’t guard 3s.
But remember Bird didn’t play SF much until the end ’85 when Cornbread went down. So the Celtics won two titles with Bird as the PF and McHale as the 6th man.
McHale played 28 minutes per game in his second year.
Favors has cracked that once—the game Al was injured.
Even though Parish and Bird were far, far, far, far better than Al and Sap, McHale was given a bigger role immediately.
It’s one thing to give a player only 28 minutes per game because there are two Hall-of-Famers playing the same position.
It’s another thing entirely to play Favors 12 minutes so Al freaking Jefferson can go 5-17.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I agree on that.
I wish Favors would have played more last night. I think Corbin overplayed the vets last night
Spurs were willing to play rookie Duncan
39 minutes a game. No need to trade vets if team is willing to do that for a good player.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I could point out plenty of 20-year-old rookies who do just fine with 30 minutes.
But come on. Al stunk last night. And Favors/Kanter played ridiculously low minutes.
Watch Favors. It’s absurd to think he couldn’t handle 30 minutes and being a primary low-post scorer.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I agree Al wasn't good last night,
He isn’t Moses Malone, I get that. I would love if Favors or Kanter played well enough to take over the game. I wish they would have played more last night. I agree with all of that. I think he could handle 30 mins a night and be ok. I don’t think Kanter is ready for that yet, he gets gassed after about 6 minutes on the court. But I hope in the long run they do take the minutes. But the idea that they will be better getting their butts kicked playing 30+ minutes a night is better for them long term than winning games while playing 20 mins a night doesn’t add up. The Clippers, Warriors, Kings, Wizards, T’Wolves, ect. should have won something by now if the playing the young kids thing worked as often as this post suggests.
What kills me most is that Favors may be better than Al right now
Favors shoots a higher percentage, he’s shown strong post moves, he’s shown a range out to 15 feet. Even though his FT% is lousy, his TS% is still 5% better than Al’s. Favors has a higher rebound rate, a higher block rate. Their ORtg and DRtg are identical.
Al’s getting slightly more assists and slightly more steals. (I love the slightly more assists thing—considering Favors has 0).
When you really compare them it’s impossible to say that Al really gives the team any better chance of winning.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Great post.
I’d rec this a million times if I could
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
Additional win now and latter camp thoughts
Sky Blue posted may of the reasons our "Now and Later" camp believes we can win now and in the future by playing the veterans.
I am not going to re-hash those thoughts. I do want to add several more thoughts specifically about our big men and why I think we should keep the minutes and rotations we have.
1 – Al Jefferson’s Trade Value. I think Al Jefferson won’t reach his maximum value until this summer. If he keeps posting 20 and 10 (or even 30 and 10) he will be very valuable to other teams. Especially teams wanting that one final piece because if he doesn’t work out he is at least a large expiring contract. The more he plays, the better the numbers, the better the value. He could be packaged for an elite point guard or several great role players.
2- Skills and Habits. Everything I read and see about Favor’s is that he has huge potential, raw athleticism, great defensive sense and ABSOLUTELY NO OFFENSIVE SKILL. Right? Well that sounds like the opposite of Jefferson. Jefferson has an amazing set of post skills on offense but a bellow average defense. I would love to see Kanter and Favor’s learn from Jefferson for one more year and as I said above I think it works out better to keep Jefferson one more year anyway.
2- Favors. I love Paul Milsap. He works hard in the off season to get better and he works hard in the game. I love Karl Malone. Every year he came back stronger and had more skills. I want Favors to be like Karl Malone and to be a taller Paul Milsap. I want him to compete with Paul Milsap as long as we can keep Paul Milsap on our team. I want him to try and earn a starting spot by going through Paul Milsap. Could you imagine that? I think he is getting the minutes he needs to progress but he also isn’t being given anything.
3- Kanter. Kanter hasn’t played a lot of basketball and I think it would be good for him to transition slower than usual for a third pick. If he continues to improve rapidly then you can trade Jefferson at the trade deadline. However I don’t think he needs the pressure right now. I think that it would be awesome to let him learn from Jefferson and Milsap for one year and then trade Jefferson when his trade value is the greatest.
5- Good Big Men are hard to find. We have always struggled with not having enough good bigs. We have 2 great bigs in Milsap and Jefferson and two potential Allstars in Favors and Kanter, but what happens if Kanter is a bust. Or what happens if Favors becomes a headcase. There are a lot of really bad teams that have potential all stars. Bring the young guys a long and trade the oldies as they get replaced.
I really don’t think we need to adjust the minutes for the big men.
A few responses
if the master plan is to increase Big Al’s trade value and trade him in the offseason, then I’m all for that. I would love to see him moved either at the deadline or in the offseason for pieces that help the Jazz in the future. I’m not sure that’s KOCs plan, but I hope it is. Favors can definitely learn from Big Al, but he may also pick up some bad habits. He clearly has learned how not to pass from Al. Plus, Favors offensive skills are underrated. He has had two 20+ point games already this year (counting pre-season), so he clearly has talent. He could learn just as much about post moves from a good big-man coach as he can from Jefferson.
Making the Playoffs and other stuff
I also think that if we can it is important to make the playoffs.
How many times do we here about how the Jazz may be foreced to move to a bigger market. I read somewhere that we don’t break even unless we make the playoffs. I would love to miss the playoffs as little as possible. I want my Jazz here forever.
I also think that we already have the trade pieces we need to get a great point guard to compliment our core of 4 young players. We have a huge expiring contract. We have incredible cap flexibility with the guys we have coming off of the books and our trade exception. We have valuable and expendable pieces (Milsap, Jefferson, Harris, CJ).
It looks to me that the Jazz are set to benefit from great veterans to make a playoff push while teaching the young guys along the way. I also think the Jazz are set to make huge moves for key pieces in the next two years. I would think we are in better position than most other teams.
Your hearsay is a bit wrong
Jazz have to make playoffs to break even if they pay luxury tax. They’re way under that level now. They’ll be making a profit this year just fine.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
You all make some good points.
However, if the Jazz play it right, in this shortened, compressed lockout year schedule, they can have their cake and eat it too.
In order to keep everyone fresh and avoid injury, the Jazz can easily justify cutting back the minutes of the veterans and playing the young guys more minutes in every game. And, depending on who is playing well and who is not, the Jazz can justify leaving some of the young guys in at the end of most every game (along with mostly veterans) to give each of the young guys some crunch time experience in the right type of environment.
My fantasy is that a whole lot of games will go like the game last night—the Jazz will play well and challenge a good team, but ultimately will lose the game by a few points at the end, ensuring a losing record at the end of the season and a good draft choice. And against lesser teams, I believe the Jazz will learn how to close out and win a few games. With a tougher schedule in the West than in the East, and the Jazz having mostly away games during the last two months of the year, I don’t think Jazz fans need to worry about the Jazz having a good enough win-loss record to make the playoffs or to get worse that the 5th or 6th best pick in the upcoming draft.
Also, with a lot of luck (especially with Mark Jackson as their coach), Golden State will not be worse than the 8th worst team in the NBA and the Jazz will be able to use that pick this year, as well, in a deep draft.
This might seem redundant, but it struck me last night, that in addition to trying to get a good SF prospect such as Harrison Barnes, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist or Quincy Miller, the Jazz might also want to take a look at (Jared—is that his first name?) Sullinger—the power forward at Ohio State. He would probably be the perfect candidate to replace Al Jefferson’s low post scoring at a much lower salary. There really aren’t any good point guard prospects in this year’s draft (the quality of Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, etc.), so the Jazz will need to upgrade their point guards some other way, probably through a trade of one of their veteran bigs (Jefferson or Millsap) along with Devin Harris. I agree that it makes sense to keep the veterans this year, and to play the veterans this year a significant amount of minutes, to maximize their trade value, to teach the young guys how to play, to keep an upbeat environment in which the young guys learn how to win, and to make the young guys work for their minutes, so they don’t get spoiled.
by Fesenko for President on Jan 12, 2012 1:10 PM MST reply actions
I don't particularly want to bash Harris.
But at this point I am scared that playing him more minutes actually hurts his trade value. We probably can’t get much for him already, and with the kind of games he is putting it up, he ain’t making it any easier on us.
To a lesser extent this same concern holds true with Big Al. The Jazz got him relatively cheap, but were there any other better offers out there at the time? I think he has gotten a bad reputation throughout the league as a blackhole and as a bad defensive player, and it is nice to see him try to shake that off and become a better player. But if fans on this site can see terrible shots that kill the team offensively, and see how he is getting destroyed defensively, so can NBA scouts.
Sullinger's a touch undersized. Only 6-9.
I think it’s going to be a big issue for him in the draft and his first few years in the league.
Closer to another Millsap than a Big Al, in my opinion.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
My feeling about Jazz are pretty well-established
I’ll reiterate now, though.
If Jazz make the playoffs playing games like last night, then they’ve chased fool’s gold. (Hayward, Favors, Kanter, Burks playing 45 total minutes). They’ve gone after a quick kick instead of major long-term success. Development does not happen by watching other guys play. Anyone who thinks so is simply wrong. And Al/Millsap/Harris/Howard/Raja have, at best, the talent to make a 7-8 seed for a couple years and that’s it. Anyone who thinks differently is fooling themselves.
If they make the playoffs playing the kids major minutes, then so be it. The kids have the talent, and they’re going to improve drastically over the next couple years. It’s the beginning of big things.
But here’s the most likely thing that happens if the Jazz push to have their vets win them games as much as possible:
They end up about the 9th or 10th best team in the West. In which case they will have delayed the development of the kids, they will have screwed up their chances at getting major talent in the draft, AND they didn’t make the playoffs anyway.
Seriously, how can anyone say that Al and Harris are going to teach the kids what a winning mentality is — at least with a straight face?
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Agree with everything you said 100%
How many winning teams has Al played on? People can bag on his supporting cast all they want, but if he’s really that good, at some point he would have at least carried a team to an 8 seed. The only things he can teach Favors/Kanter are how to not pass, take bad shots, and play bad defense. I would rather those guys learn from Jazz coaches.
I don't want to bash Al too much
But the truth is he and Devin are still trying to learn what winning feels like. They can’t pass that on to the kids because they don’t know.
Yet they’re supposed to show the kids what winning is about? Sorry, they’re in the same boat—except they have years of horrific losing to overcome. Kids don’t have that baggage already.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Devin has won as much as anyone on the team and played in the finals.
Dallas won like 70% of their games when he played for them. They haven’t had near as good of a record sense he left, but keep telling yourself the guy doesn’t know how to win.
I think you get blinded sometimes by how much you want the young guys to play and the fact that you don’t like Al’s game and the fact that Harris isn’t anywhere close to what we had has you willing to look past the good things they can offer.
I should have said Devin is trying to remember what winning feels like
He hasn’t been a part of it for a long time. And he was never more than the fourth or fifth most important player on those Dallas teams.
I am biased in my like of the young players. I’ll admit that.
I think you’re biased because you like Al and Devin and think that players are incapable of contributing much until they’re 25 years old.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I guess I haven't made myself clear on that.
I want the young guys to play. I want them to play a lot. But I think winning now is a lot more important to their development than losing and waiting for a draft pick to save us. I go by history and the odds are more on our favor to win games to build a good team long term then to lose now for future blessings. If the best way to win is playing the rookies 40 mins a night great. If it is letting Millsap hit jumpers then I am on board with that too. I just want to win and history says it is the right choice.
I guess I haven't made myself clear enough either
To me it’s not about the draft pick. I genuinely think the kids have more talent. I think Favors is better than Al now. I agree that Kanter may not have conditioning to play 30 min. now. But his minutes are trending down … all for the fool’s gold expectation that Big Al can lead us to wins.
I also think Al’s game is absolutely the biggest inhibitor to the young guys developing. I don’t get how 3 minutes is going to help Burks learn to get good shots within the offense. I don’t get how giving 80% of the shots to Al, Sap, and Howard is supposed to help Hayward become more aggressive.
The more we chase wins via Al (which is a sketchy hope at best) the less the kids play and the further off a dynamite future is. I don’t think the difference is playoffs vs. worst team in the league. I think the difference is 4-5 wins. But by leaning on Al and Co., I think it will be a consistently mediocre plateau. While going with the kids they may struggle at first but quickly learn and get better, beginning a trajectory of great things to come.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Well if the 4 or 5 wins seperate us from making the playoffs and not making the playoffs
I would choose to make the playoffs.
Favors is averaging over 20 minutes a night
Burks and Kanter are both averaging double digit minutes and Hayward is getting 26 minutes. And we are currently in the playoff picture with 15% of the season complete.
And as the games get closer and tighten up, those numbers will drop as Corbin leans on the vets.
Those are the kinds of games where the young guys can learn the most. You say minutes in a winning effort are the most meaningful. I say minutes against the other teams starters in pressure moments develop players far more, win or lose. But continue to let Kanter and Favors abuse second teams, while Jefferson can’t guard his man and puts up inefficient numbers.
I agree I want to see Favors play more
I thought he should have in that game, but for all of Al’s faults last game you point out that he can’t guard his man?
I think you are over looking the fact that Jefferson did a good job on Bynum defensively. Bynum was averaging 17.9 PPG 14.6 rebounds per game, getting to the foul line 6.4 times a game and shooting 53% from the floor.
Against Big Al he had 12 points, 9 boards, on 38.5% shooting and only got to the foul line 4 times. So his defense wasn’t that bad.
Big Al played fine defense against Bynum.
But usually the other team’s bigs are feasting on him. And yes he is working on it, but it isn’t consistent at all. But Bynum and Gasol were struggling against Kanter and Favors just as much as against Big Al (or more so in Kanter’s case, he played great D against Bynum). So if the young guys weren’t getting torched, when in fact they were holding their own, why trot an ineffective Big Al back out with 10:30 to go in the game? And I know you agree on this point that coach Ty brought them out too early, but this trend is just going to continue or get worse.
If he does that everygame I will be on your side
I trust Ty more than that though. I think he has done pretty well this year and I will play the wait and see approach.
I can only base my opinions on what he has shown me.
And it started with the end of last season when Favors was not getting enough minutes. Seems like it is somewhat continuing this year. Although that said I do blame the FO as much as Ty, who at least to the public have been pretty wishy washy on what their plan is.
It depends on your definition of "enough minutes"
When he plays well and stays out of foul trouble, he generally gets 20+ minutes.
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This year? Seems like he's been fine defensively. Not great, but good enough.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
His best games have come against teams without their dominant big men.
Like I said inconsistent. His defense was definitely lacking in the team’s earlier losses, like against the Nuggets, and Lakers.
Remember when everyone wanted a big who could block shots in the paint?
Big Al is 9th among qualified leaders.
Jazz fans are so picky and want every guy to be super well rounded. Big Al is playing way better than last year and appears to be getting better consistently. He is passing out of the post more than he ever has before, and he is acknowledging his mistakes including passing and defense and trying to work on them.
Why does Favors automatically have more upside than Jefferson? If he is head and shoulders ahead of Jefferson, I believe he’ll be playing more by the end of the year. If it’s a wash, then what’s the huge deal in playing Jefferson?
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Right now the minutes are trending down for both Kanter and Favors
It’s why people are worried right now.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Well if Favors wouldn't have fouled out against Cavs he would
have most likely finshed that game out. He fouled out with a few minutes left. That would have put him closer to 25 minutes that night, which would have been hist second straight game with 25 minutes.
Right, so if Favors can't take advantage of those minutes
his minutes are going to trend down. He blew an opportunity.
I'm not sure where this whole trending down thing is coming from
He didn’t play much in the Lakers game and he fouled out in the Cavs game, but he still played 22 mins. That might be a slight downward trend from earlier in the season, but that’s with his 39 minute game factored in. Throw that game out and throw the Lakers game out, and there’s not a discernible trend.
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I am almost argued out.
So I will just say, 22 minutes isn’t enough.
And this is a fundamental disagreement.
1st and 2nd year guys on playoff teams normally only get big minutes if there’s an injury like with the Spurs.
Some of us see the team as a potential playoff team. Others do not.
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That's probably where we differ
A) I don’t think those 4-5 wins would be the difference
B) If making the playoffs means the young players are no better by the end of the year, I would rather not make the playoffs.
You’re worried about becoming classic Clippers. I worry about becoming the Bucks (a 1-year peak at 8th seed surrounded by constant mediocrity).
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I think we currently mirror the Grizzlies from a couple seasons ago.
If we kept this trajectory, we could be an 8th seed in the next season or two and maybe get a favorable matchup. But Memphis is maxed out on salaries right now and they are probably, at best, the 5th best team in the West. now they can hope that other teams get old, but how long can they keep all of these players at their salaries and get a lot better. They are going to challenge for the top 3 in the West for the next 4 years, as they hit their peaks, but never do much better than that.
I don’t want to be the Grizzlies again. A team that is good, but also has no financial flexiblitiy to make the necessary moves to get over the top.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
I agree.
If we are not smart with things we could again lose all of our flexibility and but financially stuck like we were with Ak, Boozer, and Memo taking up most of the cap room. I hope we are a lot smarter this time. The good thing KOC has done is nobody is on a longterm deal right now and we have room to move players and take on players to mix and match to get to a good combonation. The key will be to maintain that flexibility.
This is the thing that could also hurt the Thunder in a couple of years. If Westbrook gets a monster deal with Durrant’s deal can they keep Harden, Ibaka and the rest of their guys. This will be interesting to watch going forward.
And this is why it's so tough to bank on guys this young.
You can’t keep all of them and their contracts are all up around the same time.
There’s got to be a balance between young guys and reasonably-priced vets.
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Well agree to disagree
A) If those wins get us to the playoffs I will disagree completely. The playoffs were more wide open in the last shortened season. If you remember the the 8th spot in the Easst ended up in the finals. So I would rather give our young guys a taste of the playoffs than another lottery season.
B) If our young guys can’t get better playing double digit minutes in the NBA then are they really guys worth building around anyway?
As far as the Clippers, it is true I don’t want to use the Clippers stratgey of the past umpteen years and let the young guys takes us to the lottery until they leave and our replacement young guys take us to the lottery. The Clippers have been around 42 years and have made the playoffs only 7 times. When they moved from Buffalo and became the "Clippers" in 1978 they have made the playoffs 4 times (twice making it without a winning record) and won only the above mentioned playoff series, when they added some vets to the mix with the young guys. They would have to win 914 straight games to get to .500. That is a little over 11 years without losing. So yes I really don’t want to try to use a strategy that those guys have been using since the late 70s.
The Bucks on the other hand have been around for 44 years and made the playoffs 26 times with a .522 winning pct. They have also won a title, by pairing a young star with an old star. If the Bucks lost 1,535 straight games they would have the same winning percentage as the Clippers currently have. That would be almost 19 years without winning a single game just to get them to Clippers stink level. Since 1999 they have made the playoffs 7 times (as many as the Clippers have in their whole existence.) Their last playoff trip they lost to the Hawks in 7 games without Bogut. With a healthy Bogut I think they win that series. Plus if Bogut can stay healthy and with the team this year (they are 4-2 with him in the lineup) they could be a playoff team in the East. So it isn’t like they are a bad team now. So that one year of mediocrity is really a poor assessment of what that franchise is really all about.
So If I had to choose between becoming the Clippers or Bucks, I would pick the Bucks.
By Bucks
I mean a team that goes:
Lottery 3 years (mostly high)
8th seed
High Lottery next 2 years and counting.
I don’t want a team that you have to say if so-and-so is healthy they could be a playoff team. I’d much rather build a team that we can say if so-and-so is healthy they could win a championship.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Well I'd rather be rich than stupid.
I would hope everyone would much rather build a team that if they stay healthy can win a title than one that needs to stay healthy to make the playoffs. I thought that would go without saying.
As for the Bucks I would rather make the playoffs 7 of the last 13 years and make it to the conference finals over the Clippers who have made it to the playoffs only 7 times period and have had lots of top picks.
I just don't see them magically going from 20-win season to championship contender
When is it acceptable to start hoping they make the playoffs? For this year, I hope they make the playoffs. If they’re an 8th seed, what difference does it really make from them having the 14th pick? Is it really worth the .002% chance of getting a higher pick?
These guys are so young that they’ll get better by getting older and in whatever playing time they get. Just because they don’t get monster minutes doesn’t mean they won’t develop. There are tons of examples like Ryan Anderson.
Is it more about developing the players and getting the most out of them or checking them to see if they’re a superstar and if they’re not, then casting them off?
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I want them to make the playoffs.
Just behind meaningful minutes from the young guys.
Jazz are the only team in the league
That thinks they can’t play young players with talent.
They’re they only team that seems to want to give all the shots and all the minutes to a mediocre player while young talent sits and “develops”.
It’s insane. Our vets just aren’t that good to warrant making the kids ride the pine. Every single one of them has shown the ability to play. Every one has had big moments. The best win of the year was led by Hayward and Favors.
Yet their minutes are trending down, down, down.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
This is what I think is funny.
Hayward played 20 minutes in a game that he played poorly. He was getting burned by Matt Barnes and couldn’t throw the ball in the ocean to the point that he didn’t shoot a layup on the last play of the game.
Only the Jazz though could have a 21 year old playing the 3rd most minutes on the team, have 4 guys under 22 playing double digit minutes and at the same time don’t believe in playing young players. Wow.
He also lead the team in assists with far less minutes than the starting pg.
His shot was off, but other than that he was playing fine.
But the big thing is, he didn’t play in the most important part of the game when the Jazz needed his passing the most. He only came in LATE in the fourth because Bell fouled out. I don’t understand how when the offense is clearly struggling to find rhythm, you don’t play your best passer.
Hayward is my favorite player
and I was one of the few that was happy that we picked him because of his playmaking. I even did a post about it when we picked him. I agree with what you are saying about his passing. I love Hayward more than anyone else on this team so I really want him out there.
But on the flip side Hayward was getting eaten alive by Matt Barnes. He was letting his offensive struggles affect his D and I think when Corbin saw that he felt like he needed to go to the bench. I thought it was justified.
Why does Hayward get such a short leash?
When other players, specifically vets, get destroyed on D and don’t get yanked?
I don’t remember any specific moments when Barnes torched Hayward. I thought Hayward was pulled because he was missing shots. But I could be wrong.
I think with Hayward it was the combo last game
He wasn’t playing well on offense and it looked like he let that take energy out of his D. Barnes hit a few shots in a row and he got pulled. I think if he was playing well at one end or the other he would have played more, but when you are struggling at both ends it is hard to play you in a close game. Plus when your backup is the only guy keeping the team in the game.
I still don't think he was playing poorly on offense.
Sure he missed a couple open 3’s, a layup, and had to take a bad shot with the shot clock winding down, which all hurt his %. But he was still making plays for other people.
And Ty has played Hayward and Howard together multiple times in 4th quarters before, where they played really well together. I don’t think it was an issue of Howard is keeping us in this game so Hayward gets no 4th quarter minutes.
Also two other things.
The wing position if VERY shallow for the Jazz. Josh Howard, let that sink in for a minute, is our best wing. With Hayward probably our second best. It is easy to find Hayward minutes (and should be easy to find Burks minutes, I will never ever understand that).
And we didn’t trade our franchise player for Hayward like we did Favors. There is no way Deron Williams is a Net if we don’t get Favors. Favors will probably be the best player we got from that deal. Favors has to get minutes. Has to. He has shown he can be great. He has shown he has a higher ceiling than Big Al. He has shown he can handle the load, as long as he can stay out of foul trouble. If this team doesn’t figure out what they have with Favors this year, the entire last two season will be a failure.
I think we all agree that it would be nice for Burks, Favors, and Kanter to be getting more minutes
But I don’t understand the huge concerns about downward playing time trends and all of that after 1 game of low playing time.
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Kanter's PT by game:
20 – 14 – 15 – 13 – 13 – 9 – 14 – 9 – 9
He’s also improved since game 1.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Not as obvious, but here's Favors:
18 – 17 – 38 (Al out) – 23 – 22 – 21 – 15 – 25 – 22 – 12
After 4 straight games over 20 minutes, he now has run of four games with two under 20. Including 12 when Al shot 5-17.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Hayward's PT
24 – 27 – 36 – 31 – 20 – 25 – 25 – 29 – 27 – 20
Again, subtle … but the decreasing trend is there. And he’s the team’s best playmaker.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
That's only because of the 36 and 31 at the beginning of the year and the 20 in the last game
Throw out the 2 high and the 2 low and the moving average is actually increasing.
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Sure, but the two highs are at the beginning
And the lows are middle-to-end.
If I did that to prove my students’ test scores are actually staying the same, I’d be in big trouble.
You can’t just throw stuff out willy-nilly.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
The first 20 was immediately after the 31.
And I think you’d be in serious trouble if you calculated grades based on a moving average.
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And the other thing is that it's a really really tiny sample size
So throwing out highs and lows is much more appropriate, in my opinion, because one high or one low influences it so much.
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Burks looks like a Bell curve
5 – 10 – 3 – 11 – 28 – 16 – 13 – 8 – 3
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
To me, this is what it looks like
The more the Jazz started winning, the coaching staff began giving more minutes to the vets and cutting minutes to the kids — even though it was the kids, in some cases, that got the winning trend started.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I totally agree with this
But I also acknowledge that it was mostly against 2nd teamers themselves. Didn’t the Lakers barely play their bench? I think this is a much bigger reason why the young guys got so little run in the Lakers game.
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What I think is funny is that we have a guy who may be better than Blake Griffin right now
And his minutes are going down so Al can play 36 minutes and get 18 shots every game.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
This isn't even the point of the article.
But this statement saying that he may be better than Blake Griffin right now shows your Jazz fan bias. That is completely ridiculous.
I don’t think Favors can even play 30+ mins a game regularly. When he gets tired he fouls, when he fouls, Corbin gets mad at him and yanks him or he fouls out early.
How quickly everyone seems to forget when Favors picked up a quick 2nd foul in the a game earlier in the season because it looked like he was dog tired and wanted to come out. Everyone on here was all over him that day. Blake Griffin is one of the best conditioned athletes in the game. If you want to argue that Favors is right there with him, I will be forced to call you delusional.
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Here's why I say this
Favors is a better defender. Favors has a better range to his shot. Favors MAY be a better all-around player.
Favors has only played 1 game at more than 30 minutes, and he was great. Until the Jazz actually try playing Favors 30+ per game, we’ll never know how good he actually is.
The delusion is thinking that Favors can only play 15-20 minutes per game. The delusion is saying he has no refined post moves (I don’t know if you have ever said this, but I hear it a lot and it’s absurd).
And citing fouls is total BS. He’s averaging fewer than 3 per game. He’s fouled 4 or more only twice. He’s cut his fouling a lot.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
And you're 100% sure that cutting his minutes and fouling less are not a causal relationship?
I am a firm believer that Favors can score points and play well within the offense right now. Definitely don’t put me in the Favors-can’t-play-offense camp.
I do however have serious, serious doubts about his conditioning and I believe that Ty does too.
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Last year he averaged 6 fouls per 36 minutes
This year he’s averaging 4.5 per 36 minutes. He’s played 1 game at more than 30 minutes, and he had 3 fouls.
There’s a lot of talk about earning the minutes. But geez: what more can a guy do to earn the minutes?
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Yucca look up some stats first man
The reason for the knock on Favors for not having a post game is that he is shooting very poorly on everything that isn’t at the rim.
Favors shoots 33% from 3-9 feet, where most post play takes place, 28% from 10-15, 31% from 16-23 feet. He is below league average from all of those spots
Big Al from those same ranges shoots 3-9 ft 49%, 10-15 ft 42%, and 16-23 ft 35%. That is why people say Big Al has a more pollished post game. He can hit things outside of Dunks.
So that is why FAvors has a knock on his post game, because he struggles when it isn’t a dunk or layup.
Where are your numbers from?
82games.com doesn’t break it down that way, but this is what it says:
Favors on dunk: 100%
Favors close: 52%
Favors jump shot: 46%
Jefferson dunk: 90%
Jefferson close: 62%
Jefferson jump shot: 38%
65% of Jefferson’s shots are jump shots
45% of Favors shots are jump shots
This tells me: Favors has a better jump shot. Favors also relies on it less. Al does shoot higher closer to the rim, but it doens’t make that big a difference because he doesn’t get to the rim as much.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Hoopdata.com
It breaks down where shots are taken. It also gives league averages for each spot.
http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx?team=UTH&type=tot&posi=%&yr=2012&gp=0&mins=0
The young guys aren't so fragile
If they don’t get playing time, they won’t develop. If they don’t get playing time, their confidence will be ruined.
I think they’ll develop significantly just by getting older and growing into their bodies.
If the concern is about becoming the Bucks, then the real underlying issue is a distrust in Corbin and the front office, isn’t it?
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Players develop and learn by playing
I know people will point out that giving playing time does not guarantee they’ll become stars.
True.
But 10 minutes or fewer (for Kanter and Burks) and cutting Hayward and Favors to the teens guarantees they won’t.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Guarantees?
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How many stars play 10 minutes?
I know it’s early. I know I’m exaggerating. But yes: if the players never get more PT than they have now they will never be stars.
And will they? I don’t know. How good will the kids have to be before they supplant the vets? This FO and coaching staff makes me believe they have to be about 500% better. Hayward’s lucky because there aren’t a lot of other wing options on the team. But for the others — it drives me nuts. Al’s just not that good. Raja’s not. Devin’s not.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
But why does it have to be THIS YEAR, and more particularly RIGHT NOW?
No one is arguing that they should get these same minutes later in the year or next year.
And see below on the how many stars play 10 minutes thing. BobbyD31 already did some research.
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And what if the Jazz trade Harris and Jefferson at the deadline for good draft picks?
Wouldn’t that be even more in line with what you eventually want — high draft picks and playing time for the young guys?
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It doesn't have to be this year or right now
But the longer playing the kids is put off, the longer we will wait for a good team.
That’s what I believe.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
And I believe that the difference in turnaround will be negligible.
If they’re good players now and sitting the bench, they will be mentally tough enough to still be good players when they get the playing time.
They won’t magically crumble or turn awful.
I thought the whole goal for you guys was 3 years out anyway. Wasn’t that the plan? I just don’t buy the idea that in 3 years, a guy will be made or broken by a difference in 10 mins of game time THIS YEAR.
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And exaggerate much?
Hayward hasn’t been in the teens once this year and Favors’ playing time average is right at 21 minutes, whether you throw out the high and low or not.
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No it doesn't and it makes your argument even more silly.
Steve Nash played 10 mins a game his first year in the NBA. I think he turned out OK.
Jermaine O’Neal played 10 mins per game his rookie year and ended up being a 6 time all star.
Tayshaun Prince played 10 mins a game as a rookie and ended up being on making 4 all defense teams in the NBA and winning a title.
I disagree that development does not happen by watching other guys play.
So I must be simply wrong.
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How can you guys take this post serious when dudes handle is FIRE KOC
“….OH…BOY….!!!”
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
For one, I mostly agree with him. Not about firing KOC, but with the general premise of the article.
The bottom line is that if the Jazz finish as a 9th or 10th seed they will have really mishandled this year. Plain and simple.
My favorite NFL team is the Oakland Raiders for reasons I can’t fix. But this year, they were first in their division when their starting quarterback went down and they had a decision to make if they were going to compete for the playoffs and make a deal, or just sit and wait it out. They ended up trading two first round picks for Carson Palmer. I was against the trade, solely because it made the playoffs the only reasonable ending for what they did. If the missed the playoffs anyway, they would be in the same spot except without those picks.
This Jazz team is headed in the right direction. they’ve decided that they are going to “compete” for the playoffs in the name of keeping a “winning atmosphere.” They won’t even say the word rebuilding. But if the Jazz play out the year and miss the playoffs anyway, while sacrificing a better lottery pick and more minutes for their young guys, then shame on them. And I believe that is exactly what the Jazz are going to do.
The only thing that gives me hope is that the season still has some time. And I predict that the Jazz will be 5-10 games under .500 at the trade deadline and in the middle of a losing streak adn that the team will finally admit that this isn’t a team that can make the playoffs and then shed some salary. But then if they choose to do that, they will be taking whatever offers are available, probably desperately.
You can lose games and still have a winning culture. You just have to have a winning goal and plan. I am fine for having veterans on the team with great attitudes. Look at Earl Watson. He is great and tries to win everytime he is on the floor, but he doesn’t stunt the growth of the team. Get rid of the guys taking away touches (playing time isn’t the bigger deal in the long run) and surround the young guys with vetterans who can teach them winning habits (Paul Millsap being one). And be proactive about it, because it is sort of silly to think that this team is going to make the playoffs.
For what it’s worth, does anyone know who was the starting point guard for the Sonics during Kevin Durant’s rookie season? It was Earl Watson. Along with other veterans like Nick Collison, Damien Wilkins and Wally Szcerbiak, guys who could support in builidng up Duran and Jeff Green.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Totally off topic.
I told one of my buddies that the Carson Palmer trade might be the worst of all time when it happened. I understand they wanted to make the playoffs for Al Davis and all that, but Carson Palmer? Really?
I agree with everything you said.
Is there really such a big difference between the 8th pick and the 16th pick?
The Spurs got Kawhi Leonard at 15 and he could certainly end up being the best player picked 8-18.
I don’t think you can be bottom 6 two years in a row and maintain a winning culture in today’s NBA. And I definitely don’t think the Jazz would have a full house very often that 2nd year. Hardcore fans are fine with losing if it brings them a championship or a championship-caliber team. Casual fans aren’t that big on going to watch their team develop while losing 80% of their games.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
For one, if you know what the hell you are doing, there is a Major difference between the 16th and 8th picks. For the Jazz it has historicallly been the difference between Kirk Snyder and Ronnie Brewer or Alec Burks.
Secondly, Jazz attendance has been such that I don’t see a big problem with putting out a less successful team. More Jazz fans attended the 2003-04 year when we were picked to be the worst team of all time by many, than attended either of the last 3 last years that Stockton and Malone were here. That was the year that we got to see Andrei Kirilenko do his thing every night. That is the team we should try to emulate. Play great defense, get out and run and learn to play together running the offense through Hayward and sometiimes Burks.
And then we should sign Mike Dunleavy Jr and trade for Monta Ellis in the offseason moving Hayward and Burks back to the bench.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Alec Burks got drafted 12
What if we adjust that down to 10th to 16th or 12th to 16th? Does that change your opinion of things? And Ronnie Brewer is not a star, but he was drafted at 14 regardless. You can get his level of production in free agency or through trade. Alec Burks is too young to know how he’ll pan out. Eric Maynor at 20 was a pretty solid player. Kosta Koufos at 23 is looking better. Denver fans all seem to be calling for him to get more playing time.
And I posted this above, but if the Jazz trade Jefferson and/or Harris for first round picks or young guys, wouldn’t that be the best possible result? The Jazz end up with picks/young guys, and their current young guys get playing time? And isn’t that more realistic if they’re not sitting the bench and if the team has a reasonable record?
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
When Jefferson and Harris get traded for picks, then we can talk. As of now, that's not the plan.
And I don’t think it is the plan. We should really be trading them for picks or else to save cash that the team could spend later down the road.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
You two are so sure of your perspectives.
Which one of you saw the D-Will trade coming? Or was it both of you?
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Because I have seen this movie before. It was called the "let's keep Carlos Boozer until he leaves in free agency" movie.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Calm down man...You're making yourself look like "the salivating wolves"
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
Really? I feel like I'm the calmest of the 3 or 4 of us.
But maybe that’s what always happens w/ online forum arguments.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Don't you think it would lower their trade value if it were widely known that that were the plan?
What is the incentive for the team to come out and indicate that they are probably going to trade these guys?
I think they’re much more valuable as assets than as salary dumps.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Trade value is fairly independent of whether the team wants to get rid of a player or not
Trade value is more determined by how desirable the player is and by how many teams. See: Chris Paul.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I firmly believe that the NBA lost a lot of suitors with the way they handled the Chris Paul fiasco.
They drastically reduced the number of teams interested.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
But it was enough
To refuse a good deal and get a better one. Minny’s unprotected pick + the best young SG in the league?
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I'd say most casual fans don't know we were a bottom 6 team last year.
And they’re not selling out going with Team-Al.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
But what are we this year?
people have us in the top 13-16 range
by JoeBountiful on Jan 13, 2012 1:29 PM MST up reply actions
Right now?
Who knows. Really, nobody can say how good this team is right now. Most wins have some big qualifiers to them.
We’ll know a lot more after 15 more games.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
in fact, if you polled every Jazz fan that attends Jazz games right now, if they would rather see Raja Bell or Alec burks play 25 minutes, an overwhelming majority would say Burks, results be damned.
And I think the same would be true if you asked those same Jazz fans would they rather see Favors or Jefferson or Millsap play 35 minutes, they would almost all say Favors. Jazz fans want to be entertained and they want to have hope in the youth movement.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
I'm so confused. That first sentence was a doozy.
“an overwhelming majority would say Burks, results be damned”
You lost me.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Winning results. Fans want to see entertaining players play, even if the wins and loss record is hard to predict due to it.
But sorry, my complex sentence kept you from the truth that it contained.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Im in the camp of seeing Favors start
Im also in the camp of winning games, and pushing for the playoffs. And Im sure every player on the team including Corbin is pushing for the same thing
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
+1, good call
I have no dog in the fight for Favors vs Big Al or Millsap. I felt very strongly that he should have been in the game at the end of the Lakers game to secure some of those rebounds that went out of bounds or to the Lakers.
The only thing I’m trying to argue is that it’s a bad policy not to play the lineup that is most likely to win you games now just because you think it might win you more games in the future.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Did two straight 20-something win seasons kill Durant and OKC's chance for a winning culture?
Or two straight years out of the playoffs kill the Magic and Dwight Howard?
Or two straight years out of the playoffs kill the Cavs and LeBron?
Or two straight years in the lottery kill the Blazers and Roy/Aldridge?
I think fans and FO are a bit overly paranoid about this “winning culture” BS.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Look at your list
Durant is TBD.
Howard has never won a title and wants out of Orlando.
LeBron left the Cavs, maybe you missed that.
The Blazers have not won a playoff series after their 2 years in the lottery. So they would be closer to the Bucks than these other teams right?
So your examples are why I don’t think this is the right strategy. Plus next years draft doesn’t have a Durant, Howard, or LeBron. The number one is compared to Marcus Camby. The 2 pick is compared to Lamar Odom, and the 3rd pick is projected to be Danny Granger. So why tank for that?
If you asked Cleveland or Orlando if they would do things differently knowing the final outcome in advance, you think they would do it differently?
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Yes, no championship. Right?
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
If you think Clark and I expect guaranteed championship
Then you are very mistaken.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Here's the real point
Do you want to guarantee that your two lottery picks aren’t anywhere near rookie-of-the-year caliber?
Easy: play them no more than 12 minutes per game.
Do you want to guarantee your 2nd-year talent won’t lead the team to victories?
Easy: force them to play secondary roles the entire year.
I think it’s very interesting that of those good players who played very limited minutes their rookie years that you listed above, all but one only became a good player AFTER they found a different team that would give them a shot.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Similarly
Do you want to guarantee that your 2nd year PF doesn’t impact games as much as another, slightly lesser talent?
Easy: play him less than Greg Monroe.
Would Favors be as awesome if he got the same role/minutes? We don’t know. But it’s guaranteed to not happen if he’s NOT given the chance.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Yes right because the point of this post was Title or bust right?
And you guys say you agree with the post. If this upcoming draft had that level of star coming out I would be all for tanking to land him, but this draft doesn’t have that.
All he says about a championship is that is the long term goal. Correct.
I agree with the premise of the article that is Jefferson Harris and Howard are not in the long term plans of the team and that the extra wins they are helping uus get are hurting the teams’ long term goals, which are to develop their young guys and to acquire the best assets there are (ie, better lottery picks.) I agree with that. No one can ever guarantee a championship, but I’ve already explained why keeping Jefferson, Harris, and Howard are alittle counterproductive.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Pat Riley guaranteed a championship if I recall correctly.
Phil Johnson talked after the last game how important Howard and the Vets are to the young development. Howard plays hard every second he is out there. That isn’t a bad thing to learn. I think it could help the long term goals of this team to learn from a pro.
I don't think I ever said I agree with everything in this post.
I agree with some of it. I agree with the idea that playing your vets over younger players who won’t be here in 2 years is a bad long term plan. I do not necessarily want to lose games.
If the Jazz had Cleveland or Orlando's success in the next 5 seasons, even if it meant all those guys left in free agency after 5 years, I would take that.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Come on
- Durant and OKC: 50 wins + 1st round loss, then 55 wins and Conference finals, still improving.
- Howard and Orlando: 5 straight playoff trips, two 59-win seasons, trips to conference and NBA finals
- LeBron and Cavs: 5 straight playoff trips, 60+ wins twice, NBA finals and conference finals
- Blazers (more recent): 3 straight playoff trips. A top-10 team thus far this year
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Right 0 rings in the bunch.
I would be happy building a contender and trying to win the title. But no team you mentioned has done that.
Also this next draft has top talent closer to Aldrige level than the rest of those guys on your list. If all Aldrige can do is lose in the first round than why should we lose to add lottery picks when we could get into the playoffs and lose in the first round now?
Plus even if they are a top 10 team only the top 8 make it to round 2, so why does that matter? You said you don’t want to make the playoffs as a bottom seed that gets beat in the first round right?
Orlando was a Jameer nelson injury from winnign the title. Cleveland was a real contender.
Portland may be a contender this year. All of those teams mentioned were bigger contenders than the Jazz have been since ‘98 and they all tried to win the championship. they were all real contenders. Magic would have a championship if Nelson didn’t miss two games in the finals against the Lakers.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
every single one of those guys you named minus Aldridge are once in a generation type players that didnt need development. Can you honestly say the Jazz have someone like that on the roster, or in next seasons draft?
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
by EcERyda69 on Jan 13, 2012 12:13 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Boom goes the dynamite
And I don’t think the Blazers were ever really contending, were they? Just always a promising young team that never got to contender status?
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Damn you Oden...
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
All three of those players were once in a generation type players? Once in a generation guys that played like 6 total years apart from each other.
There are players in this upcoming draft that will make the Jazz 10-15 games better from day one. It’s a great draft. No one knew that Howard or Lebron or Durant would be as good as they would be, they just knew they’d be difference makers. In fact, many believed Okafor was the better pick over Howard.
It’s as silly to say that there won’t be a franchise changing player in this upcoming draft as saying there definitely is. But the Jazz need to give themselves the chance of finding out. At worst, they get a guy who makes them playoff contenders while being paid $3-4 million a season.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Once in a generation guys that played like 6 total years apart from each other.
My bad, but my point still stands. Guys like that dont come around very often.
There are players in this upcoming draft that will make the Jazz 10-15 games better from day one.
Lebron made the Cavs 16 games better his first year with the Cavs. If someone in next years draft can bring that type of talent to Utah than Im on the wagon for tanking
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
then get on the wagon. you'll always be invited. Everyone is.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Nobody can honestly say
Because nobody’s giving the kids a role that will allow the team to find out.
That’s the issue to me. I know Al, Millsap, etc. aren’t truly great players. Favors, Kanter, Hayward, and Burks might be.
I think the Jazz would be much, much, much better trying to find out.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
And I think we could find out next year
When they’re all a little better and not have to give up wins this year and trade value for Big Al.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Will you be happy if we are teh 9th seeded team this year?
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
You mean miss the playoffs by one spot?
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Or else miss the playoffs by like 4 or 5 games, but have the worst lottery spot. Will that be okay?
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
I think this will happen whether they play the vets or the young guys
But yes, that’s fine. If the team hits or exceeds my expectation of 27-ish wins (I can’t remember my exact number and don’t feel like counting it out), I will be pretty happy with it. As the team gets better, my expectations will increase.
My main goals for the team this year are to:
1) Either get Al developed to the point that he’s a valuable asset to the team or trade him for assets that will be valuable to the team.
2) Compete and win games they should win
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
I think this is the absolute worst-case scenario
9th place. Playing time for kids limited—still don’t know what they can be. No ability to get good picks to improve. Ugh.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
50% say yes
But in 50% of those examples the players didn’t or don’t want to stay with that team.
by JoeBountiful on Jan 13, 2012 1:33 PM MST up reply actions
Bottom line:
I agree with FireKOC’s premise, but I also believe that many fans think this current team can make the playoffs and I think the team is taking the chance that they can and I can live with and understand that. I had the Jazz going 28-38 this season if they make no changes to the lineup and so far they are 2 games ahead of my prediction. I don’t thnk they are better than I expected, but I also didn’t expect other teams to be missing their best players night in and night out.
But I can live with this team for a couple months, but if we are like 15-25 or something come the end of February, then the team should act accordingly. If they don’t then this issue will get brought up again and I will be vocal about the lack of direction of the franchise. Because I don’t believe that being the best type of fan is by just nodding and saying “in the front office we trust” all of the time.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
That's fine.
But refusing to acknowledge that success could still come by not following your route of losing a ton to get a superstar is frustrating to those of us who disagree.
I think success can come by being awful and getting a superstar. However, I personally believe that the team would be good enough not to get a top 8 pick even if they did play the young guys. And I don’t have a lot of faith that the Jazz will draft a superstar in picks 9-16.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
I actually agree there and I am more concerned about the playing time than the better draft pick, if I had to pick one.
If we were able to give away Al Jefferson right now to another team and pick up a third string center and move Favors up to starting center I don’t think we’d be more than 3 or 4 games worse overall. Maybe just as good.
But I know that the team would be more entertaining.
I will admit I was wrong if this team makes the playoffs.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
My bottom line
The Jazz will not find out how good Hayward/Favors/Burks/Kanter will be until they are given big roles. Hayward and Favors at least have already succeeded several times when given a shot.
Given that
- this team is probably a lottery team regardless
- several players given the major roles (Harris, Raja, Howard) are absolutely NOT in the long-term plans, and others (Al & Sap) possibly aren’t
- this is a deep draft, with some major difference-makers available at C, PF, & SF.
it is in the Jazz best interests to do everything they can to see what Hayward/Favors/Burks/Kanter can contribute in the biggest roles they can possibly play.
Will our kids provide effective scoring, or do the Jazz still need to find a scorer? Will a Hayward/Burks backcourt provide enough playmaking, or do they need a traditional PG? Can Burks learn to play within the offense? We know his rebounding is good, but what kind of offense can Kanter provide? What kind of scorer is Favors really able to become? A 15 ppg sidekick? A 19 ppg guy? A 25 ppg beast? What is Hayward likely to be at his best?
I think the Jazz need to have some real answers to these questions in order to make intelligent decisions moving forward. And I don’t think anyone can answer them right now.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
And I'll admit, a big part of my POV
is dreaming of this starting lineup:
Kanter, Favors, Kidd-Gilchrist, Hayward, Burks.
I genuinely think that team would kick butt, offensively and defensively, while also being one of the most entertaining and fun teams in the league.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
It can be hard to gauge a team's talent if they're losing a lot
If they’re competitive, then that’s fine. Otherwise, you won’t get a good indication of how the team is anyway.
For instance, look at the Kings last year. They were high on Tyreke and low on DMC. This year? High on DMC, low on Tyreke.
Tyreke was scoring huge but the team was losing a ton. He looked like their point guard of the future. Now, the fans all think they need to get a distributor and maybe switch Tyreke’s position. He was very productive when they were really bad, but now that they have better players, they see how limited Tyreke’s game is.
I think that happens quite a bit. Really good players for bad teams can be a huge tease.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Final thing, I think
I think the Jazz established some crummy precedent with Koof.
They simply refused to play them. It had a dramatic and destructive impact in Koof’s performance with the Jazz. He went from promising to terrible and worth giving up on. Now Koof is on a different team, playing career high minutes and looks to deserve more.
I think the Jazz could repeat this.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I totally agree
But the 2nd year guys this year are averaging 21.5 and 26.5 mins/game. That’s a far cry from 4.75.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Could you see this happening?
Jazz play Al and Sap 32-36 minute each while Favors stays at about 20. In a year or two the Jazz trade Favors, disappointed because he never became the impact player they had hoped for. Favors is given 35 minutes and a major role by the new team and goes off for 25 & 12 and one of the best players in the league.
I hope not.
But at the same time, I don’t know what Favors can possibly do more than he has to earn a bigger role.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Learn some post moves, hit free throws, work on his jumper would be
a few things that I think he could do to earn a bigger role. I hope he does.
Oh
so you’re in the Favors has no post moves, offense camp.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Maybe that's why you were confused earlier about me.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
No, I want him to have a go to move that he can hit more than 33% of the time.
I think he has some moves and great ability, but right now if he isn’t getting a layup or dunk he is struggling. I think if he improves his post game he will demand more playing time. He had Luke Walton defending him last game and couldn’t put a post move on him to score the first time he tried to post Walton. The next time he just went right to the basket and overpowered him as he should, but the first play he blew a five footer over Walton. He should be able to post Walton all day. I think that is where he could improve the most.
Absolutely agree. But you can't learn those things on the bench.
But the thing he does better than any big offensively, is that he draws shooting fouls putting more pressure on a defense than any shooting percentage of a fadeaway or weezy cant do.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
He's made only 7 fewer free throws than Al
That’s in almost 100 fewer minutes and not exactly shooting the lights out from the line.
Though to be fair, Al’s FT% hasn’t exactly been awesome this year either.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I'm still trying to figure out how the HoopsData and 82games stats fit together
Because to me they seem to contradict each other.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I know Locke and Hollinger use Hoops Date when talking about shooting from spots.
Locke is a stats nerd and knows his stuff. Hollinger is the best numbers guy I have seen so if it works for him it works for me.
Hoopdata takes it game by game and uses the shot chart and breaks it
down in each game. If you look at the box scores on hoopdata, below them they show what each guy shot from each range in that game. It is pretty cool stuff. You can look up the Jazz game by game here:
No, I can't
I believe that the team is trying to get Big Al’s value up for a trade.
But even if they aren’t, I think they would get Favors his playing time somehow rather than trading him. Millsap and Jefferson are only contracted for 2 more years and they’ve got a team option for Favors in 2013, and for Kanter in 2013 and 2014. At the latest, they would be getting 30+ mins a night by 2013. And that’s at the very latest.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Well don't look now because he is playing less than 1 minute a game more than he did with the Jazz
and getting those minutes because Nene has been banged up. He is also playing almost 10 minutes a game less than Favors Plus the last 3 games he has gotten a total of 16 minutes of playing time. I can’t think of a worse example. The guys has only gotten into 7 of the teams 11 games and when he does play is getting less minutes than Kanter.
Did deliberately try to miss the point?
If not, let me rephrease:
He showed promise. He did well when given his small role. The Jazz refused to give him any more PT—(they actually gave him less). He got worse. The Jazz gave up. They traded him. Given a shot again, he’s quietly getting better again for another team.
It’s a much smaller scale, but it’s horribly reminiscent of Nash and Jermaine O’Neal—two guys you have repeatedly held up as examples of how well things can turn out for rookies who play only 10 minutes per game.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I think he was refuting the point by indicating that Koufos hasn't exactly panned out post-Jazz
I tend to disagree and think he shows a lot of promise, but he was super young with the Jazz and I think he’s one of those guys who has gotten better in large part just by getting older.
The Jazz are better off now with Favors and Kanter as the developing players and Jefferson as a trade asset, but I think Koufos would have been an adequate backup center over someone like Elson.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Bingo.
I was saying the Jazz gave the Kouf as much of a chance as anyone else has. The T’Wolves got him out of there as soon as they could, and Nuggets used him in spot duty while Nene was out and now he is back to not playing. Koof isn’t a great example of the Jazz wrecking a guy that would have been great. He has got chances to play and hasn’t impressed anyone. He could still improve because he is young, but the Jazz gave him as much of a shot as anyone has and he didn’t perform that well.
Steve Nash and Jermaine O’Neal impressed and got a lot better, the Koof hasn’t done that yet.
How about we all agree on a couple of things:
- Devin Harris has been dreadful.
- Millsap is killing it this year
- Burks, Kanter, and Favors have succeeded in their roles and deserve the chance for bigger ones
- There is no justification for playing Al 35 minutes a game this year, nor giving him 7 more shots than any other player on the team.
- Hayward is very up-and-down and needs more confidence in his ability to shoot/score
- Raja’s had a couple good games now, and we wonder if he can keep it up
- CJ has been really bad
- We wish we could see Jeremy Evans play more (another guy who has killed it in his limited role and been rewarded with no increased opportunities)
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Oh, and the team's performance at the FT line has been horrific
With the exception of one Josh Howard
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Agreed.
I would also add we can all agree that Howard has played well overall. I didn’t think he would still be this good.
I didn't think he would be this good at all
He’s been really effective.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I agree on all those, obviously.
Can Evans please see some minutes? I am almost to the point where I want the Jazz to trade the kid just so I can get to see what he can do, even if on another team.
I'd love to see this:
Jazz trade Al/Harris for the best picks or good young players they can get.
Then they go with (unless a great player is attained in the trade):
Starters:
Favors
Millsap
Howard
Hayward
Earl
Main Bench:
Kanter
Evans
Burks
Tinsley
I think that would be a team with a beautiful mix of vets and kids, getting the right kind of minutes to the right guys, and putting together players whose games and styles mesh really nicely.
I also think they’d win more games.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
You want to trade Al? I am shocked.
But really the only problem with this thinking is that we would have to trade Al/Devin to a team with enough cap room to not take back salary. Most teams that would want to add one of them would be looking to make a push for the playoffs and mostlikely not be under the cap or have that good of picks for next year. So while they both could be traded I think it would have to be for another player and not just straight for picks.
You're right
But considering that GM’s have made some pretty bone-headed trades in the past, I can still dream.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Really I should stop whining
Because we’re pretty much stuck with this team this year. But next year … Al, Sap, Raja, & Devin will be expiring.
Crazy stuff could happen then.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
True, but look at this team Crazy stuff has already happened.
CJ and Millsap are the only guys that have been here more than last season.
What about trading some of our assets for a point guard
Looking at Yucca’s “Ideal” situation where we trade Al/Harris and have this line up
"Starters:
Favors
Millsap
Howard
Hayward
Earl
Main Bench:
Kanter
Evans
Burks
Tinsley"
I think our biggest weakness is a point guard. Could we combine any of the following for a top 10 point guard?
Al, Devin, CJ, Bell, Howard, draft picks, trade exception?
If not, what can we trade for? The only things I see trading for are higher draft picks, a top point guard, or a couple of great roll players.
Also how do we make our assets most valuable?
I think that if the Jazz were trying to trade Jefferson at the trade deadline, playing him as much as possible would be the best thing to do. I also think he become most valuable at the end of the year or before the trade deadline next year.
Raja and Devin will be more valuable next year than they are this year.
Our trade exception is most valuable at the draft (trading a pick and the exception for a point guard).
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