By Winning Games Now, The Jazz Win In The Long Run
by skyblue on Jan 12, 2012 8:40 AM MST
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PrintI appreciate the argument that we should aim for the lottery and give our youngins the lion's share of the minutes. OKC is a great example of stinking it up, getting PT for Durant and others and drafting great thanks to high lotto picks. I, too, feel it is very important that we find out what we have in Favors, Burks, Hayward and The Underturkey. However, I wanted to bring a different point of view. I really think Ty, KOC and management are doing a great job right now. Here's why:
1. The youngsters are getting decent minutes. I'd like to see Burks and Kanter get a few more, but it's not like they are all riding the pine. Favors gets 22 mins/game, Hayward gets 25 mins, Kanter gets 13, Burks gets nearly 11. Big Al gets 35 mins a game (which is a lot), Millsap gets 28, Harris gets 26. Other than that, no one gets more than 20 outside of Hayward and Favors. 13 for Kanter and 11 for Burks are significant minutes the way this season is scheduled. It's not like the Jazz are playing the vets 40 and the youngsters 5.
2. What's more valuable for developing young talent: 20-25 mins for a team contending for a playoff spot or 30-35 mins for a team trying to get the best lotto position? There are a lot of assumptions there. Maybe the Jazz would win more games playing the younger guys. Maybe the Jazz won't remain competitive and in playoff contention. However, I don't think anyone here can say that they know better than the Jazz coaching staff what lineups give the Jazz the best shot at winning and I think that playing on a competitive team for 20-25 mins is more valuable than playing 30 mins in a bunch of blowout losses. There is no substitution for being on a winning team!
3. I think we are getting an idea of what we have in our young four. I would also like to see how Favors does in Big Al's spot (getting that many touches and shots). We've seen glimpses of the dominant player Favors can be. However, these guys are still barely even 20 (or not even that!). How the heck are we supposed to know how good they can be at that age? We all see the potential, for sure. It just seems a little premature to say that we need to find out what we have RIGHT NOW...THIS SEASON...IMMEDIATELY...at the expense of the season (again, making the assumptions outline above). I'll tell you how good they can be- Favors can be Alonzo Mourning with better offense, Kanter can lead the league in rebounding and score 15 a game on putbacks and 15 foot jumpers, Burks can be the scoring guard we've always wanted and Gordon can be a jack of all trades that does the little things to make a team a champion. I believe that our young core can be the start of a championship caliber team! Getting them to the post season this year will only help their development.
4. For every OKC, there are 10 Minnesota teams. Multiple trips to the lottery does not a championship team make. If we can get more all star talent through the draft, GREAT! However, I don't think that we should sacrifice the season for the chance to luck out in the draft.
I apologize for the novel. I just have had these thought floating around in my brain and wanted to put them down on paper (paper?). Personally, I am super excited with the way things are going this year. I feel like everyone--even Big Al--is making progress and we are, at least right now, proving doubters wrong and in playoff contention! All the while, our youngins are getting a bunch of MEANINGFUL minutes and we get to watch some great games where we win more than we lose.
All comments are the opinion of the commenter and not necessarily that of SLC Dunk or SB Nation.
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Yes, but...
This upcoming draft is supposed to be deep, we are not going to win it all this year. If we can get 2 more lottery picks and then start thinking about winning next year, it will increase our chances of landing that “super star”. As you said, for every OKC, there are more Timberwolves. So, you need as many chances in the lottery as you can get, to increase your odds of landing the stud you need to compete. And I say this in the most non-confrontational way that can be imparted on “paper”.
Pinning your hopes on draft picks is not a good idea, especially if they're picks 10+.
And I wouldn’t get your hopes up about the Golden State pick. My money’s on getting 2 first rounders. They could easily be top 7 this year and top 6 next year.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Again, not to be antagonistic
Could you clarify what you mean by " My money is on getting 2 first rounders." I understand that the GS pick is 7+. I dont expect us to get the #1 overall, but if we had 2 more top 10 picks, that would be better than # 18. People learn in different ways. I am much more inclined to figure things out if i am told the basics and then left to my own devices to figure it out, as opposed to watching something over and over again. It just seems counter intuitive to play the people that we know we arent going to keep around, there by dropping our position in the draft. I would like to get the best players that we can this year, be it by draft or trade, and then next year start our plan to win a championship with those players.
by SteelersJazz on Jan 12, 2012 1:38 PM MST up reply actions
Sorry, that should have read "second rounders"
How do you know that the Jazz aren’t going to keep the other guys around? The Jazz are a young team, and that’s not just the under 21 group.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
I agree with this. The young guys will develop faster playing competitive games.
Harder to learn when you’re losing every game by 20 the the end of the first quarter and the other team doesn’t care for 5/6 of the game.
I do think that when guys have off nights that it’s ok or good to play a young guy. I think many of us would have liked to see Favors and/or Kanter at the end of the game yesterday to see if they could have gotten some of the rebounds that eluded the Jazz.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Two main things.
1. Our young guys have shown they deserve more minutes. They all look like they can handle the rigors of playing in the NBA and in almost every case they look like they have WAY more potential than who is playing ahead of them. In some cases I think they would be an upgrade.
How does Al have a pretty bad game against the Lakers and Favors only gets 12 minutes? Favors should never be getting only 12 minutes. This is supposedly your future franchise player, and you give him 12 minutes?
2. Everyone says they don’t want to be Minnesota. Minnesota has quite a bit of young talent this year, they are one of the funnest teams in the league to watch. As long as they continue to cultivate their young players and let them grow, they are going to be a threat in the not too distant future.
The Minnesota team we don’t want to be is the one that gave too few minutes to their young guys like Kevin Love who was playing behind an Al Jefferson.
Other than as they were saying on the Dan Patrick show Kevin Love hasn't signed an extension.
It is all sunshine and rainbows, but what happens when Love is a FA? Why hasn’t he signed an extension? Without Love they aren’t that scary.
Plus remember when they had KG, Tom G, and Marbury and they were supposed to be the future championship contender. All that went away when Marbury requested a trade.
Lets wait for the T’Wolves to win more than 30% of their games before we decide they will be they next title contender.
I am not calling them a contender.
But I do think it is ironic that Minnesota is considered the franchise not to emulate, and they held Love back by playing Jefferson in front/with him.
But I love that they are playing their young guys big minutes. I would much rather cheer for a team that does that, than the one they used to be.
Love played close to 30 mins a night with Big Al on the team
Is that really holding back a guy when Darko and Ryan Hollins were on the team?
I guess Al was holding him back when when Love averaged 28 minutes for the first few weeks of games of last year when Tolliver was getting his time.
Love and Jerfferson didn't work together.
Jefferson has to get his, at the expense of others, specifically big men, touches. When Al was playing for Minny, Love was only a talented player with upside. When Al was traded to the Jazz, and Love got more minutes, but more importantly more touches, Love became a superstar and not just a nice kid with talent and potential.
Favors has almost no offensive plays run for him. When he does get the ball down low only good things have happened. He has shown a couple nice moves, and has even show a decent touch on a short/mid range shot. Everyone says Favors doesn’t have an offensive game yet, blah blah blah, but I argue he hasn’t had the chance to show his offensive game because he is playing behind someone who DEMANDS the ball almost every possession.
I am not saying we need to start Favors over Big Al right now. But losing to the Lakers when Al clearly doesn’t have it that night while he plays 43 minutes, and Favors gets 12 minutes is not the kind of basketball I want to watch. And it is certainly not winning in the long term.
Al had a bad game on offense
But did great on Defense. Bynum wasnt walking all over Big Al in this game
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
Great is a bit of an overstatement. If you have the chance to rewatch the game, watch the 3 times Al defended Pau in the 3rd quarter.
But he played solidly against Bynum and overall he has made some nice improvements defensively.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Awesome to see that you're acknowledging his progress.
He’s still got a long way to go, but I have definitely seen big signs of improvement this year.
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Will he get there ever and more importantly, will he get to where he needs to be in a Jazz uniform?
Is there a chance we resign him? these are the more important things to me. But it would be irrational and dishonest to say he isn’t trying his hardest and making some improvements.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
I dont' think I've ever been irrational about what type of player Al Jefferson is. I like him.
But it has never made much sense to have him in a Jazz uniform and I don’t think you can argue that trading for him was a great move at this point. You can be glad he’s on the team, not that he is and root for him, because you root for Jazz guys. I get that. But you can’t say, it made the Jazz better that we acquired him. not his fault either.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
Nope, I wish the Jazz had the picks. And maybe Koufos too. But that's done.
It seems like there was a time that you were saying that he was who he was and he wasn’t going to improve. But sometimes I lump you and Yucca together, so it really could have been either of you. That’s probably unfair of me, but it’s too hard to keep you separate in my brain. Probably like me and BobbyD31.
And in retrospect, it would have been too easy to say that the Jazz didn’t do anything to keep D Will here. Big Al was apparently at the top of his list. The Jazz made the move to try to make him happy.
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Not true. I have gotten to the bottom of that story and the Jazz had Jefferson on their list of potential people for a year or two.
They gave a list of people they thought they could get and Deron signed off on the jefferson trade. Deron never requested him, he was just the best player available in the front office’s mind. He never should have been an option for the front office. They should have seen from a mile away what would happen.
Jefferson has and can make improvements. But I wouldn’t call him the type of player we need at center for $15 million either. He isn’t making a huge difference. If he leads us to the playoffs while scoring with great efficiency, i’ll eat my words. But I would bet he doesn’t in the next two years.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
I just vaguely remember what the beat writer rumors were at the time.
Either way, I considered it a move to try to keep D Will.
And why the qualifier? Why the “scoring with great efficiency” part? It’s not good enough for him to lead the team to the playoffs, he’s also got to have “great efficiency”? What qualifies as “great efficiency”?
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His career average of 1.15 points per shot attempt is super average. Should be closer to 1.25.
With that said, if he “leads” us to the playoffs, fine. Good job by him. But I think with him being the leading shot taker, he would have to improve his efficiency to get us to be playoff competitve, so it’s proabably a moot point.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
I've said he is who he is
And it was exaggerated, a bit unfair, but also said with qualifiers.
I’ve also said that for 8-year vets what we generally see are incremental improvements—not the kind of huge leaps 2nd and 3rd year players make.
And not the kind of huge leaps I think the Jazz needed to go from the 5th worst team in the league to playoffs.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I do the same thing.
I sometimes can’t remember the difference between Yucca and Clark in who said what because you guys always seem to be on the same page, but I think almost everything JazzHype says is right along with my thinking. I end up defending something that he wrote like I was the one that said it a lot of the time.
Lets all agree that this game was different than any other typical game.
Corbin knows we hate the Lakers, and im sure he felt the extra pressure to win this game. I’ll give him a pass this game for sticking with the vets instead of giving the children more playing time.
The Jazz also need to be careful in trading off very good players who actually want to be here and play here in this small SLC market.
Al Jefferson certainly has his faults, but he is still a top 10 big man in the NBA, who is probably one of the top 5 post scorers in the NBA. That type of player is hard to find and keep, even at a salary of $14 mil.—especially for a small market team. And, by all appearances Al really wants to stay in Salt Lake and help build the team into a contender. He has a great attitude and is working harder than he has ever worked in his career to improve his conditioning, his defense and his passing.
Paul Millsap is a very good post player—an important fifth or sixth man on any contender, who also appears to be happy playing for the Jazz.
Andrei Kirilenko is one of the top 5 or 6 defensive players in the NBA with good ball handling and passing skills who has expressed a desire to finish his NBA career in Salt Lake City. I would still like to see the Jazz re-sign Andrei, either later this season or next year to add depth to the team. (As I recall, Andrei can leave his Russian team for up to 90 days after the date the lockout ended—which would be about the middle of March of 2012—or at the beginning of each season thereafter).
by Fesenko for President on Jan 12, 2012 1:32 PM MST reply actions
I think you overvalue Al and AK.
No way Al is in the top ten BIG MEN, he is a top ten center, but not PF/C. He might break the top 20. Maybe. But with defense factored in he is overpaid for what he does. Sure he is trying to get better, but I personally haven’t seen substantial defensive improvement from him on a NIGHT IN AND NIGHT OUT basis. He has had just as many horrible defensive games this year as he has had just ok defensive efforts. The season is still young and he might become more consistent, but I can just as easily say that he will regress and his defense will get consistently worse.
At this point in AK’s career there is no way he is a top 10 defender. I even like AK a lot. Earlier in his career, as a help defender he was great, but he was never spectacular as a 1v1 defensive stopper. He was possibly top 5 at his peak. He is pretty far removed from his peak. And I really have no idea how bad he wants to play for Utah. He said Utah would be getting a home town discount and all that. Well actions speak louder than words, and obviously his asking price was way too high, that is why he is staying in Russia. I assume he will be back in the league next season, but I highly doubt it will be with Utah, and that is on him as much as it is on the team.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but I'd be interested in having you name the 10 big men you believe are better than Jefferson.
I also probably overstated AK’s value as a defender—you’re right, he’s probably no longer in the top five or six, but I think he’s still in the top ten. But again, I’d be interested in having you name 10 defenders you believe are better than Ak, just to see if I agree with you.
by Fesenko for President on Jan 12, 2012 3:33 PM MST up reply actions
Had a long reply typed, I lost it all.
As is life. Gonna challenge myself to do 20 without looking anything up. Much briefer reply, and completely subjective of who I would rather have on my team over Jefferson, in no particular order:
Bosh, Blake, Love, Aldridge, Gasol, Gasol, Nene, Horford, Bynum, Howard, Chandler, Bogut, Dirk
Both Duncan and Garnett are better and get you more wins this year but old
I would take Noah, Ibaka, Gortat, Monroe, Jordan but I can see some debate there. Offered any of them in a trade straight up though, I don’t see how the Jazz can turn it down though.
Fringe guys who I think are just on Jefferson’s level so its a push would be Boozer, Lee, Scola, Z-Bo who is overrated after one good end of season run.
And I would rather have Millsap, although he is more of a SF/PF than a PF/C if that makes sense. Also Favors I think if you started him over Jefferson gets you more wins this year, if he is the anchor of your team.
I clearly agree with Howard, Pau Gasol, Dirk, Bogut, Blake Griffin and Favors. I also agree with Bynum, Marc Gasol, Aldridge, Horford, Ibaka and Love.
As for Chandler, Duncan, Garnett, Noah, Gortat, Monroe, Jordan and Millsap, I think that you could choose either Jefferson or any of those other 8, based on the role your team wanted to fill. I would personally choose Jefferson over Bosh, Nene, Boozer, Lee, Scola and Z-Bo, although it would be a close call.
Therefore, I stand corrected and modify my comment to state that Jefferson is a top-20 big man, but a top-10 scorer for a big man.
by Fesenko for President on Jan 13, 2012 1:31 PM MST up reply actions
There were a couple that I forgot too. Specifically Amare.
I think I forgot him because I wouldn’t want him on the Jazz but he is a better player.
And I like your new qualified statement lol.
Not gonna do a defensive list.
That would be based entirely on opinion. But I am willing to bet that no national NBA analyst would have AK even in the top ten.
Has any national NBA analyst ever had AK in the top ten defenders (even though he clearly was a top 10 defender throughout most of his career)?
by Fesenko for President on Jan 13, 2012 1:33 PM MST up reply actions
Probably in the year where he was putting up 5x5s on multiple nights.
No way I am going to go rooting that up though. AK has for sure been under appreciated in the national media. But I think to a certain extent many Jazz fans (myself included) overvalue him. His true worth is probably somewhere in between.
rec'd
being competitive also makes good business sense – I don’t think this market could afford anything less.
yojimbo is jazzed
2011-2012 is our 2012-2013 pre-season
Ive begun to accept us winning...
i almost forgot how fun it was. But if Raja keeps starting over Burks im going to lose it. even CJ over Raja. anybody.
Raja's D has been impressive lately, and Burks makes a lot of rookie mistakes.
I don’t really have a problem with how Corbin’s managing the situation. If Raja goes through another ridiculous shooting slump, I think we’ll all be right there with you.
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