We’re Flying Edition – The Downbeat #665
The Jazz are flying right now. We started off the season going 1 and 3, where our one lone win (a win without Al Jefferson), was non-uniformly sandwiched between three ugly, ugly, ugly losses. Since the first week of the season the Jazz have won 8 of their last 9 games; the lone loss being an overtime game at home where, despite a large disparity of free throw attempts in the favor of the road team, we had honest chances to win it. There are two major arguments that some people are making online, excuses really, to ‘make it okay’ to disregard our win/loss record. The first is that a) we’ve caught a few teams that were missing key players. And, of course, b) the second is that we’re a very average team by the numbers.
These are nice arguments to make, however they are not without inherent flaws as well. In terms of winning games because we’re less injured than the other team – well, in all the years when the Jazz core depended on Carlos Boozer, Andrei Kirilenko, and Mehmet Okur we’ve had to play a lot of games without some of our major guys as well. I don’t remember the media going easy on us for losing games to healthier teams – when we’d lose to Oklahoma City no one would write in their game recap that "The Thunder are very exciting, and currently on a statistically improbable streak of unusually great health as they have not had a serious injury to a rotation player in over 3 years . . . while that is precisely a Jazz hallmark." It’s easy to wave away our franchise, and not even think we’re worthy of contention when we lose to the Lakers three seasons in a row in the playoffs. Somehow no one waved away the last two times, on account of the Jazz being down TWO STARTERS in both of last two attempts – let alone how the Jazz, in the last attempt, advanced past a healthy Denver Nuggets squad down two starters to GET A CHANCE at the Lakers. If no one stood up for the Jazz being severely shorthanded when we were losing then doing so to disparage our current wins (because the teams we’re facing ARE shorthanded) is, how do you say it . . . oh yeah . . . hypocritical. The media didn’t go easy on the Jazz when we were down starters. The other teams didn’t go easy on us either, pounding us into bad performances. This time around the Jazz are the healthier team, and we’re not going easy on the other team. Yet, this time, the media goes hard on us for having a 9-4 record.
Our very, very average 9-4 record . . . this is the argument in b) up above. Primarily that our scoring differential (for the most part of the season) was negative, while our wins/loss record was suspect. Well, if you discount our first four games (1 win and 3 losses) do you know what our splits are like? Over the entire NBA season (omitting the first week), the Jazz offense scores 98.0 ppg, and our defense only allows 88.8 ppg; which is a scorring differential of +9.2. Scoring 98.0 ppg would put the Jazz at 8th best in the league; and letting the other team score only 88.8 ppg would give the Jazz a rank of 4th stingiest defense in the entire league. The differential of +9.2 would be 3rd best in the entire NBA.
So yeah, when there’s only been 13 games, the first 4 are going to skew the data a bit; and when 3 of the first 4 games were blowout losses – they are going to make our team’s TOTAL rankings way lower than they should have been. At the end of the season the first 4 games, out of 66 total will be a much smaller piece of the pie than the first 4 games, in 13. You can feel free to count out the Jazz, and say bad things about us; you can call us frauds – but right now look at the scoreboard. We’re 9-4, second best in the West. And if you look beyond the first week of the season you can see the numbers show that we’re playing very well right now.
Perhaps we are a horrible team, and perhaps when the schedule tips against us we’ll fall very hard back to earth (I almost count on it). But at least be man enough to admit that we’re playing very well right now, if you can’t admit that we are a good team. If the Jazz continue to get solid contributions from 8 or 9 guys a night they can surpass a lot of expectations. I had the Jazz being under .500 this year. I still feel like that is highly possible. But right now? Now the Jazz are flying.
You know who else is flying right now? Jeremy Evans, that’s who.
Thanks to MemoisMoney (@prodigyJF on twitter) for uploading this to YouTube.
Evans is flying so high right now; which is no surprise at all. Reports that he spent part of the lock out being used as a low Earth orbit reusable launch vehicle are, as for this time, still unconfirmed yet undenied.
Paul Millsap is playing like an All-Star right now. At the end of the day he may not be one, but right now there is no denying him. It’s like the Jazz, we may not be a good team, but right now we are playing very much so like one. In January, Millsap has averaged 17.1 ppg (60.7 fg%, 72.0 ft%, 1.38 pps), 8.0 rpg, 2.1 apg, 1.8 spg, and 0.7 bpg – not bad for an undersized PF who was a 2nd round pick. And again, the Jazz have gone 8-1 this month; so it’s not like he’s putting up big numbers while we are losing.
He is doing it from all over the floor, too – not just around the rim. Yes, according to HoopData.com this season he’s boasting his highest ever career fg% around the rim; but he’s also killing it from all the other spots on the floor. He’s 51.9 fg% from 3’ to 9’ out. He’s 31.6 fg% from 10’ to 15’ out. And he’s 51.0 fg% from 16’ to 23’ feet from the basket. His ratio of shot attempts between "at the rim", "in the paint", "close range", and "midrange" goes at 5 : 2 : 2 : 3. You have to guard him all over the floor, he even averages nearly one three point attempt a game this year, with an eFG% of 37.5% from beyond 23’. He is also the best evidence the scientific community has to support the theory of evolution. If he keeps this type of play up people will have to work nearly twice as hard to make excuses why he shouldn’t be an All-Star in the next few weeks.
Speaking of people working hard, you HAVE TO (not kidding, I will check your browser history to see) read Clint Peterson (@Clintonite33 ) ‘s amazing rebuttal / explanation of how the Jazz have been playing. It’s over at Hardwood Paroxysm, so go there now. (That link, like all my links, opens up in a new window so feel free to click it now!) He has been, often, the lone steading force in our Jazz community – preaching patience. His patience has paid off we all now see the continued positive change in Al Jefferson. Al is not the same guy he was when the season started. And he’s not the same guy he was in Minnesota either. I love his passing. Which Clint and I both see in beyond just simple assist numbers. Right now he’s truly becoming a part of our offensive system. Read this now! Read this now! Read this now!!
Who doesn’t love our Earl Watson, Alec Burks, C.J. Miles, Jeremy Evans, Enes Kanter line-up?
You know, besides the Clippers . . .
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Clint's article is very good
But could we please all make a rule: if you throw out Al’s worst shooting performances to compare to someone else, you have to do the same for the other people.
It drives me nuts. Al’s shooting 48% from the field. Can we all please acknowledge this?
Let’s play a similar game with Millsap and throw out his three worst games. Then he’s shooting 64%.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I think it's a great argument.
In games where this player played well, forgetting about games where he didn’t play well, this player has played very well.
But let’s remember that this player will continue to have some good games and some not good games. That’s what happens to 99% of the league.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
by clarkpojo on Jan 18, 2012 9:23 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Yep
Clint didn’t mention last night’s game, so I think his piece was written before it. But it shows the whole problem. He threw out the two Lakers games, as if they were the only that Al would ever struggle with his shot. We all say, okay: Al struggles when there are two seven-footers in the paint (except there weren’t two seven footers in the first game).
Then last night he played a new team, one without good interior defenders, and Al struggled with his shot.
The bad games happen. The good games happen. The real player is the one that goes through both.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
In a sense, the Lakers games are the only ones that matter
Because we are the Laker’s playoffs b____.
I'll make it coach.
only 2-4 vs. them when we're healthy
1-8 when down two starters.
Jazz fan who lives in Detroit. Stats guy. Photoshop novice. Likes to make the pass to the guy who gets the assist. Questions? Comments? Concerns? Get at me:
Twitter Handles: @AllThatAmar -- @AllThatAmar2 (for when I am in Twitter Jail)
Email: allthatamar [at] gmail.com
Stuff I write: Old Jazz Blog - SLCDUNK - Other Stuff
by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jan 18, 2012 10:13 AM MST up reply actions
I agree with you on this.
Al has good games and bad games, just like everybody else. Is where I would differ is if there was just one stink bomb and the rest of the time the guy was terrific and it is a clear outlier. But if it happens again then I feel like it isn’t an outlier as much as something that happens from time to time. So it shouldn’t be excluded.
The impressive thing to me though, is lasy year if Al had a bad shooting night he wasn’t finding other ways to help the team. Last night he shot poorly, but still had a double double, played very solid D, dished out 4 assists and only had one turnover. Even in the second game against the Lakers he held Bynum to a poor shooting game and below his average for points and rebounds.
Al is far from perfect but he is finding ways to help the team and the point of Clint’s article was to point that out.
Yep, wrote it Monday night, posted Tues AM
DeAndre Jordan is a capable interior defender. Check per-48 numbers then compare it to what he did last night, both on offense and defense when you want to consider how Al played.
http://www.82games.com/1112/11LAC14.HTM
And please notice the piece was about how Al and Sap play together. Because it’s been stellar. It’s not “Al or Millsap” bit.
Thanks for reading. I’m blessed to be on such a great crew over at HP.
by Clintonite33 on Jan 18, 2012 10:22 AM MST up reply actions
Like I said, I thought the post was great
Especially since I’ve also been looking at a lot of different angles to understand why the team has played so much better.
I just grow weary of this throw out his worst games and he’s been better than Karl in his MVP year … or he’s shooting 6th best in the league … or whatever. (I know you never did that MVP statement … it was done by someone else here at SLCDunk, though).
As for the 82games stats, I don’t think they’re very conclusive. There’s been a big difference in the team D when Jordan’s been out or sitting, but as for individual matchups … the average C last year had a PER of about 14. That’s about what DeAndre’s opposing C’s are getting. I don’t know if he’s been playing against better or worse than average C’s in their games thus far, so it’s hard to tell if that’s an accomplishment or not.
At the same time, yes the interior D of Al/Sap/Favors/Kanter has been otherworldly compared to the interior D of last season. And I am absolutely including Al in that statement.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
I think it's funny how for so long Jazz fans have talked about picking up a shot-blocking center.
Then Al averages 1.9 blks/gm last year, but is roundly dismissed.
Just goes to show that there’s a lot more than just getting stats to being a good player and being part of a good team. This year his defense is so much better, but his blocks are very slightly down from last year. Doesn’t matter a bit. His blocks could go way down, and it’d be fine because he’s challenging & affecting shots and playing good team D.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
It was me who pointed out how well Big Al was playing after
you compared his usage to Karl Malone’s 2nd MVP season and I just straight brought the facts. I know Big Al isn’t as good as the Mailman, but you were the one that put the idea in my head and it turned out he was putting up similar numbers even including that first game in LA.
I was more just trying to point out to you that Al is a good player than to compare him to the Mailman, but when you were basically making fun of Al, I thought I would stick up for him. I know you think the guy is worse than the guy that you would trade for a can of tuna, but he isn’t.
I'm pretty sure Yucca's past that at this point.
But I could be wrong.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
I am a notorious Big Al basher.
But comparing him to Boozer just isn’t fair. I would rather have Al times a million. And it has everything to do with effort, and the way he carries himself. Al cares about getting better, and wants to become more of a team player. And it is showing this year. I have to give him credit for that. Also I imagine Al to be a decent locker room guy, and I won’t say the same for Boozer.
I just hate that our offense runs though Al, and he is our first option. Oh and I don’t love watching Al’s game. His pump fakes and push shots just don’t appeal to me. Although he is forcing less pump fakes this year.
Seems that way sometimes
However, Al isn’t the first option always. Yes, Ty Corbin goesto him early in virtually every game, the intent being to establish an inside-out game and a paint presence, and no one on the Jazz does that better than Al.
Once the doubles start coming Ty moves off to Millsap or Hayward as the primary offensive weapon. Many games Millsap or Hayward has posted a higher usage rate than Al this year. Early in the schedule there’s just happened to be several matchups that Al could exploit so Corbin did so and Al responded with huge games while the Jazz won.
I know it doesn’t seem like it, but Al’s led the Jazz in usage rate only once in the last 4 games.
by Clintonite33 on Jan 18, 2012 6:12 PM MST up reply actions
Seems like the Jazz are getting better at not just relying on Al to carry them.
And since then they have played much better. So hopefully that trend continues and we don’t revert back to the ways of the first part of the year.
Last night it was Millsap first, early and often.
The offense has slowly transitioned from Al to an Al/Millsap combo and our team is better for it.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
by clarkpojo on Jan 18, 2012 7:15 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
They have complemented each well indeed
Good eye on the Millsap-Blake attack. I barely made it to my seat by tip, was still getting situated so hadn’t noticed.
by Clintonite33 on Jan 18, 2012 10:29 PM MST up reply actions
Wasn't aware
The others had enraged you with FG%s. That was a single, independent conclusion I came to as a part of a much greater whole. The ability of people to glom onto a single piece of information and beat it to death is always fun to watch though.
In the interests of your emotional well-being…
Al Jefferson from the floor versus opposition from LA at least 7 feet tall with shoes on — .234
Al Jefferson against everyone else — .580
Yes, Al has played “Two Towers” from LA now (really three now, including DeAndre Jordan. That boy is astoundingly lengthy. TV doesn’t do his frame justice). Pau Gasol played Al in Game 1 v. LAL. In Game 2 v. LAL he had Bynum on him, but started heating up a little bit so Mike Brown stuck Pau back on him in a defensive switch.
Coming into last night DeAndre Jordan had been holding opposing centers to a 13.8 PER. After last night his season PER given up leaped nearly two full points to 15.1. That, for you non-stat-heads, is A LOT for one game. DAJ was thoroughly dominated defensively by Al as well.
DAJ’s Productivity for last night (pts+reb+asts+blks+stls+TOs) was a 0.52.
Al Jefferson’s was 1.02, a team high in front of CJ Miles, 1.01, and Millsap, 0.96. (I love Popcorn Machine)
by Clintonite33 on Jan 18, 2012 6:07 PM MST up reply actions
"That’s what happens to 99% of the league."
If you throw out the percentage of times when that doesn’t happen.
I'll make it coach.
We know you dont like Al
It’s the same thing every time with you man. In game threads, and in every post that involves Al. Just enjoy the Jazz team as a whole right now. A jazz team that is 9-4 and on a 3 game win streak!
It’s getting kind of pathetic right now, it’s like you have some kind of agenda to bash on him when he has a good game, and poor it on when hes not.
I’ll never understand fans who bash on a player who plays for the team they root for. Why can’t they root for the guy to succeed?
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
by EcERyda69 on Jan 18, 2012 10:01 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
I've been down on big Al for a while now
Especially after the game against the 76ers this year. It seemed so obvious that he was just a black hole on offense and that we played team basketball so much more with him gone. But in the games since those first four we have played amazing team basketball. We are too soon into this season to draw any sure conclusions yet but I totally agree that I love the team effort that we have been seeing.
Al is working hard and improving himself. He wants to be in Utah. He is learning our system and creating opportunities for other Jazz players. I think we stick with our team right now and see how they do down the hard stretches of the season.
Ok, 48% acknowledged. Can you acknowledge that you bring up his FG% way too much?
And maybe that 48% isn’t even that bad? He’s higher than Tim Duncan, Elton Brand, Luis Scola, Chris Kaman, Ryan Anderson, Kevin Garnett, Kevin Love, DeMarcus Cousins, Amar’e Stoudemire, among others.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
I will when others stop throwing out his worst games
To say he’s shooting 56%
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Oh, so it takes everyone on the board, even for posts not on this board to agree not to inflate Al's FG%.
That’s awesome. I’ll just try to counterpost every time you post it too then. It’ll be a wonderful spiral.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
What I meant to say, in a snarky way, was that I haven't really harped on Al's FG% this year
Except to roll my eyes at all the times I’ve seen “If you throw out his worst games he’s shooting 56%.” It’s been going on in sundry places since about game 5. (Locke was the first I saw to throw it out, if I remember).
And I don’t get it. I don’t see people cite anyone else’s shooting this way: not Millsap, not Hayward, not Favors, not Cj, not Devin, not Raja … really not anyone except Al.
It seems to be done differently for Al too. I read things like Raja’s finally playing well again, he’s shot decently the past three games. But that’s different than picking and throwing out the worst games of the year—one here, one there … oh goodie, these are against the same team (even though the active rosters were very different) so let’s X-out those—and then saying: Wow, Al’s shooting 56%! That’s tied for 6th best in the league!
I know I should shut up. Al analysis has always had special rules.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
As a numbers person can you appreciate this?
What if you throw out his best performance and his worst performance? What then? I try not to focus too much on numbers, so would anybody like to calculate that? Consider those outliers.
I think the thing with Al is that he is the highest paid player on the team, and people are going to justify his worth. Me, I try and appreciate what he has done well this year. His defense is improved, you can chalk a portion of that up to the dip in points per game due to the lockout, but he really looks more poised out there, his Defensive effort is improved. He’s passing out of double teams more often. As bad as his game was the Lakers games, didn’t Pau have as bad of a night? how about Bynum?
Awesome
1. Preach brother!
2. Lob City/Harpring is intolerable
3. You don’t get to be an all-star by calibrating your stats vis a vis your draft order. 17 ppg is indeed awesome for a 2nd round gamble. He’s solid for sure. But all-stars average 25 ppg. One of the problems with the world is that NBA stardom has made it so actual team basketball – Jerry Sloan basketball – goes unnoticed, disrespected, and without accolades. Our only hope for glory is to win the last game of the playoffs to vindicate the last 20 years of Jazz basketball. All praise to Millsap, but he’s not an all-star by contemporary NBA media propaganda machine standards.
4. Thoroughly enjoyed that sudden attack of knowledge. I read it after I wrote my #3 just above, and I think the sentiments are consistent.
5. THAT’S THE PROBLEM! I do love watching those guys. But I also enjoy watching Hayward and Favors and Devin at his best and Raja at his best and Sap…. (Al might be growing on me)….and and and….
I'll make it coach.
do you know how many all-stars each year average 25 ppg?
I get what you are saying, but last yr, out of the 24 total all-stars only 7 scored 25 ppg. and all of those 7 guys were also guys who were voted in by the fans. the fans vote in 10 guys, leaving 14 spots open for the coaches to pick from.
a lot of the coaches’ reserve all-stars were guys who were not big-time scorers last year. if the Jazz are Top 6 in the west when the coaches picks come around, and if Sap is still playing at a near double double level, he would be hard to ignore.
but team wins >>>> individual accolades. I just don’t think scoring 25 ppg is necessary to be an allstar anymore. we’re just spoiled from malone all those years.
Jazz fan who lives in Detroit. Stats guy. Photoshop novice. Likes to make the pass to the guy who gets the assist. Questions? Comments? Concerns? Get at me:
Twitter Handles: @AllThatAmar -- @AllThatAmar2 (for when I am in Twitter Jail)
Email: allthatamar [at] gmail.com
Stuff I write: Old Jazz Blog - SLCDUNK - Other Stuff
by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jan 18, 2012 10:02 AM MST up reply actions
Yeah, MTN's claim sounds totally made up.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
Granted, I just threw out a number.
But my point is, you don’t go around the league and look at 17 ppg and say, “That dude is Killer!” It’s just because we see him every night, we know he works for his points, we know he’s efficient, we know he’s an undersized 2nd rounder who led La Tech in rebounding 3 years in a row (if only because Harpring re-introduces us to this player every time he touches it……did anybody else know that Enes the Menace is only 19? I’m surprised every time I hear it!)…..
….got off track there….. My point is simply that you don’t go ga ga over 17 ppg even if he is a beast.
I'll make it coach.
not like most people voting for the all stars really care abour ppg's anyway
i mean half the rockets made it when Yao was starting for them because they had china backing them. its the same reason why half the lakers roster can make it in, despite having only 1 or 2 legitimate all stars. it’s all about fan base. which is why i care more about the reserves who are picked by people who know whats going on.
Millsap won't be voted into the all-star game.
That will not happen. He also might not be picked by the coaches, because forward in the west is a pretty deep spot, maybe the deepest. But he is playing better than some of those that will get in over him. And he is for sure playing at an all-star level right now. Probably not superstar level, which is what you were talking about, but there are plenty of all-stars who aren’t superstars (Okur, Granger, Kaman, etc.). And sure you can look at PPG and say that is what it takes to be an all-star blah blah blah, I counter with he is in the top ten in PER in the league. He deserves to be an all-star, even if he won’t be.
Right now this second there aren't 5 guys in the NBA outplaying Paul Millsap.
The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.
by clarkpojo on Jan 18, 2012 7:18 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I would probably agree with that.
But it will take injuries for Millsap to make the all-star team, unfortunately.
Didn't realize
there were still people watching Jazz games with the sound turned up. That must be horrible.
I don't have tv
So I am at the mercy of streaming… I pray that I get the other teams’ announcers, but usually it’s Boler and Harp. Boler is kind of funny actually. When Earl threw the half-court alley-oop to Evans, Boler said, “That is not possible!” It was hilarious because it was earnest. Meanwhile, Harpring was rifling through his notecards to find his earl-throws-alley-oop pun to use….ugh…kill me now….
I'll make it coach.
You preferred listening to Booner-isms?
I’ll take an enthusiastic Matt over boring booner any day. Plus, I think Matt is being ‘encouraged’ to come up with this over the top stuff by his supervisors.
I like Harp & Boler
Harp has the passion & former player’s perspective and Boler’s developed a little bit of a sarcastic streak to him.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
I like them too.
I don’t get why people are so hard on them. They are trying to be entertaining while calling the game. Some of it makes me laugh and some of it is really dumb, but I like them.
I swear to little baby jesus
I’m going postal if he continues to call Kanter the “Kanter Shop”
Who are the best in the biz?
And what characteristics does Harpring share with any of them?
I'll make it coach.
btw, unless there is an emergency or shakeup somewhere else
this is my last downbeat. it was fun !
Jazz fan who lives in Detroit. Stats guy. Photoshop novice. Likes to make the pass to the guy who gets the assist. Questions? Comments? Concerns? Get at me:
Twitter Handles: @AllThatAmar -- @AllThatAmar2 (for when I am in Twitter Jail)
Email: allthatamar [at] gmail.com
Stuff I write: Old Jazz Blog - SLCDUNK - Other Stuff
by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jan 18, 2012 9:50 AM MST reply actions
WHAAT? Your last DB? I don't like that.
The game was a lot of fun to watch. We must keep it going on national TV on Thursday, though.
twitter: @SurlyMae
we've got a lot of talent on the slcdunk roster
they deserve more shots / day to post something here. i don’t mind sharing the sugar!
Jazz fan who lives in Detroit. Stats guy. Photoshop novice. Likes to make the pass to the guy who gets the assist. Questions? Comments? Concerns? Get at me:
Twitter Handles: @AllThatAmar -- @AllThatAmar2 (for when I am in Twitter Jail)
Email: allthatamar [at] gmail.com
Stuff I write: Old Jazz Blog - SLCDUNK - Other Stuff
by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jan 18, 2012 10:03 AM MST up reply actions
Rec'd!
I can tell you were having fun when you wrote this. It was a joy to read. I have been reading downbeats for over a year now…its now a mandatory part of my morning routine. Thanks for all the good insights and such.
Bummer. I enjoyed them.
But you contribute plenty of other stuff and I like seeing spreadsheets in your posts.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
I was looking at the Jazz schedule on espn and their was a clippers add with Cp3 and blake on the side...
all i could do was laugh!
Mmmmm Mmmmm Bitch!! - Dave Chappelle
Im that one guy that did that one thing at that one place that one time...
don't look at the jazz schedule at espn.com -- look at it over here
http://www.slcdunk.com/section/schedules
loads faster too. the second post from the top is the info you’re looking for.
everyone bookmark that stuff if you constantly try to look at the sched
Jazz fan who lives in Detroit. Stats guy. Photoshop novice. Likes to make the pass to the guy who gets the assist. Questions? Comments? Concerns? Get at me:
Twitter Handles: @AllThatAmar -- @AllThatAmar2 (for when I am in Twitter Jail)
Email: allthatamar [at] gmail.com
Stuff I write: Old Jazz Blog - SLCDUNK - Other Stuff
by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jan 18, 2012 10:48 AM MST up reply actions
1. Love your passion, but...
… sometimes you talk as if those blowout losses hadn’t happened at all. We’re fans, what the Jazz are playing like right now is better than our dreams shortly before the season, but you gotta stay cautious. The Jazz obviously did their job beating banged up tired teams missing key players and that is a huge encouraging sign. Nonetheless, until they get to some road trips against good teams like they’ll have soon, we can’t be mad at people for not proclaiming the Jazz contenders. Lets enjoy the ride. If the Jazz keep winning, the time to talk will come. :)
I was going to post about this too, so I'll just reply here.
The Jazz have only played 5 road games. The 3 blowout losses are 3 of the 5. Sure the Jazz vindicated themselves @ Den, but the Jazz haven’t really proven that they’re a capable road team just because they won a good one in Denver.
I will admit that I had both the @GSW and @Den games to be losses, so they’ve outperformed my expectations there, but I feel that they’ve still got a lot to prove vs good teams on the road. If they can play defense and share the ball on offense like they have been, I have high hopes, but I’m looking at the Jan 27 @DAL game as another big case study.
I am in no way affiliated with the blog of the same name.
I'm happy we're winning "now", but I do not expect us to be winning like this after this month ends.
I don’t think we’re contenders. I’m not eliminating the first week of the season, but I"m suggesting that there appears to be a trend that after that poor start we have played much much better. I have shown the stats to support that claim.
This was in direct rebuttal to the claims made (based upon our ppg / opp ppg) by some guys in the national media. This post was about the “now”.
Right “now” we’re playing quite well, +9.2 ppg over the ENTIRE season, except for the first 4 games, which were all played in the span of 5 nights.
If we keep winning I’ll be surprised. I don’t think we’re “for real” for the entire season. I am passionate about getting recognition for playing way above the expectation right now.
And yes, we’ve only played 5 home games, and won only 2 of them. Isn’t winning 40% on the road better than most of our jazz teams have managed over the last 25 years? Ha ha.
The rest of the season will be fun to watch. We should endeavor not to get too high during wins, nor too low during losing streaks.
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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jan 18, 2012 12:28 PM MST up reply actions
road games, not home ones.
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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jan 18, 2012 12:30 PM MST up reply actions
Those 2 road wins are the only games I haven't predicted correctly so far.
And that’s also where they will need to pick up key games towards making the playoffs.
If they can go 2-6 from Feb 2 through Feb 14 like allen aoki was suggesting yesterday (which certainly seems feasible), those 2 wins will be HUGE down the stretch.
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You said "we". Only DianaAllen can say "we".
We started off the season going 1 and 3
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ha ha
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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jan 18, 2012 12:22 PM MST up reply actions
Jazz are certainly growing as a team
1 – Jazz are playing well. I’m not going to go by the stats. I’m going to go by how they play. They’re playing with energy and teamwork. No denying that.
People are going to argue that the Clippers were on a back to back. The Jazz played back to back and beat up the Thuggets. The reason the Clips looked so exhausted was magnified due to the Jazz looking so energized.
Most important factor to me is team chemistry and right now the Jazz have it. They’re playing hungry and I haven’t seen a letdown game yet.
3 – Millsap is all around package and someone needs to mention his defense as well. almost 2 steals per game? That’s stats for a really good defensive guard. He’s 7th in the entire league in steals per game. He’s forgetting he’s a PF. He’s better than LeBron with steals. Of course stats will change during the course of the season. My point is, Millsap is the whole package, offense and defense. (maybe lacks blocks but as a smaller mobile PF, he was awesome against a quick guy like Griffin)
4 – read the article.
The Jazz can dominate the paint like no other team. The Lakers mighty big men Gasol and Bynum struggled bad against our bigs. As long as the Jazz can dominate the paint, they’ll be a hard team to beat.
Bigs are premium, and honestly all four of our bigs can be starters on most teams.
Differences from last year. Jazz played like chicken with head cut off. No confidence, defense was horrible, started off slow, lost to teams they should beat.
This year. They’re beating the teams they should be beating. They’re starting off stronger, their defense is improved, and they look composed and in control.
or Alec Burks . . . but Burks doesn't get to float around on offense
because he doesn’t play on a 5 man unit where the defense is keyed into other guys. Brewer got to make that cut because defense was worried about D Will, Booz, and Memo. Play Burks on same unit w/ Harris, Millsap, and Big Al and i’m sure we’ll see him getting a lot of dunks from smart, sharp cuts into the paint (like Shandon Anderson used to).
: )
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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jan 18, 2012 2:18 PM MST up reply actions
Gotta have the passer see him though.
Earl probably would, and Hayward might, but beyond those 2, I’m not sure who would deliver the sharp, accurate pass. I know Devin can, but I’m not sure if he would.
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expectations
as soon as you expect millsap to be an allstar, you can expect the jazz to be getting slapped around in the standings.
Yes....
I think if Millsap is your 3rd best player, you are a regular playoff team. If he is your 4th best player, you might win a championship.
I'll make it coach.
So... if he's your 1st best player, you don't make the playoffs?
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I qualified it with "regular"
But what do you think?
1. Is he our best player?
2. Are we playoff bound?
I hope to eat crow here, but I don’t expect to.
I'll make it coach.
I have never understood this logic. Millsap is better than everyone except for Dirk in Dallas.
So and so is only a 3rd best player on a championship team and so and so would be the 2nd best player on a playoff team is crap. This doesn’t make sense. It is a team sport.
Look at last year. The Mavs won the title with Dirk, who was one of those guys that would only be a number 2 on a champion. Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler were the 2nd and 3rd best players on that team, Millsap is way better than both of them. They beat a team that had 2 number ones and a number 2. This should have proved that it is how the players fit together not who should be a 3rd best player on a championship team.
Sap>Terry?
At what? Playing PF or PG?
I hope it’s true that fitting together is more important than collecting All-stars… But Chandler is good, Terry is good, Kidd is good, Barea played out of his mind, DIrk is astronomical…
I'll make it coach.
Right, but most considered Dirk a number 2 on a champ yet he was a one.
Nobody considered Terry a number 2 on a title contender before last year either. Chandler was brought in to backup Haywood, nobody thought he would turn Dallas into a championship contender. In fact most of the experts picked Dallas to lose last year in the first round of the Playoffs.
The so and so is a number 4 on a championship team is just logic that people try to make work according to stats and it does work in fantasy basketball, but in the real world it doesn’t work. I
Sap > Terry at playing basketball.
I don't think Sap is better than Chandler.
I think they both do different things. And what Millsap does is more easily matched by another player. A dominant big man who can hold down the paint IMO is more important than what Millsap brings. As big as Terry was in Dallas winning that championship, I think Chandler was more important. Just my opinion. I think without Terry they can still win that, especially considering how some other people played off the bench. There is no way they win that without Chandler’s D.
Also I think Terry fills the role he is supposed to better than anyone else in the league. So it is hard to say Sap>Terry. Terry is the best at what he does. I can’t say that for Sap.
What's weird
Is that Dallas is 2nd in the NBA in defense sans Chandler. They were 8th last year.
by Clintonite33 on Jan 18, 2012 10:38 PM MST up reply actions
This is true.
And it is interesting. I am not a numbers guy, nor do I pretend to be. But there are a lot of interesting numbers out there, specifically defensively this year, and I think a lot of it has to do with the lockout.
And of course as a non numbers guy I am going to say that you might not be able to quantify what Chandler meant to that team. Numbers might tell you they are a better defensive team, but they are winning less games. Is that all on Chandler? Of course not, they had quite a significant amount of turnover in the off season, and of course after winning the title some of that fire will be lost. But he was by far the biggest piece they are missing. Although when it is all said and done I think the Mavs will be a factor in the playoffs.
as long as
you make up truth like, ‘millsap should be an allstar’, because you pulled some mediocre facts and threw them together to present a whole picture, but the resemblences is misleading at best, shut up.
Don't worry, I speak internets...
What he was trying to say is more along the lines of “I respectfully disagree with your opinion”
@BravetheEarth
Disagree. He's playing at All Star level.
His lower point average is balanced out by his higher steals and lower turnovers.
It’s not all about a high scoring average. I’m not sure if either Al or Paul will get selected, but they both certainly deserve consideration. It’s funny because in years when San Antonio and LA both get tons of guys selected, sportswriters say that the coaches tend to reward the higher teams in the standings. When teams like Utah are high in the standings, sportswriters say that their team play hurts the All Star candidates and that ultimately no one is worthy.
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as long as
millsap is an opportunistic scorer, the picture of him as an allstar is misleading, so shut up.
I think he's playing like one, I don't think he will be rewarded / recognized as one.
It’s difficult to label him as just an opportunistic scorer though, that would be highly disingenuous. He’s not a rookie anymore scoring on hustle plays and being a garbage man. Before we go any further i’d love to know your definition of opportunistic is. Perhaps we agree, but just don’t know it yet?
I think an opportunistic scorer is a guy who is a garbage man, a guy who can’t create his own shot, a guy who scores when the other team leaves him open, and so forth. A good example is how Fab Oberto used to score as a starter for the Spurs when the other team was worried about Duncan, Parker, Ginobili instead. Oberto cleaned up the glass, and made good cuts to open spaces and finished well. I think he was an opportunistic scorer. Can we agree on that definition?
If so then let’s try to look at HOW Millsap is scoring this year. And after we can discuss if they score in the same ways. Sound cool?
Right now Millsap is scoring pretty well, for the entire season he’s going at 54.6 fg%. He’s also averaging 12 shots a game. So it’s not like he’s just getting hustle points. Furthermore, he’s averaging (for the entire season) 1.08 points per possession (PPP from synergy sports), and 1.30 points per shot (PPS, from basketball ref.). He’s scoring at a very high rate — which is a hallmark of opportunistic scorers.
That said, not all people who are Opp scorers shoot efficiently; and not all efficient scorers are Opp scorers. Right?
Do you know how many baskets he’s made that were assisted? Again, Opp scorers don’t make their own shots, remember. If you watched last nights game you would have noticed that he was posting up on griffin (an all-star) and scoring on him with a bevy of moves. He’s been doing this all season long against all players (Pau Gasol, etc).
Millsap is 6th best in the league (in over-all rank) on PPP when posting up. He’s 107th on spot-ups. 6 is a better rank than 107, right?
When being posted up it’s up to him to score (be it backing in, drop step, up fake, hook shot, face up, dribble out, etc). This is making his own shot.
If he was an opp scorer he couldn’t do that. He’s not, in my books.
And if you can make your own shot, and you are better at making your own shot than you are at being a garbage guy, or a guy who is the beneficiary of a drive and dish (what his spot up score of 0.86 ppp, which is lower than his over-all ppp) — then you must NOT be an opp scorer.
And not all all-stars are primary scorers. or first options. guys like Tyrone Hill, John Stockton, Wally Szczerbiak, kevin duckworth, and Mark Eaton were all all-stars too.
Lastly, “shut up” is a pretty weak argument. even for a message board.
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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jan 18, 2012 2:37 PM MST up reply actions
you're kidding about millsap being an opportunistic scorer right?
How is that even possible? he makes baskets against much bigger opponents, smaller quicker opponents, close to the basket, far from the basket, left side, right side, fast break, post, grind, 3 pointer, floater, dunk, jumper. How is that opportunistic? he out works everyone, everyday, everyyear. becoming better and better. where is this opportunistic coming from, Maybe because the jazz gave him the opportunity to play pro ball and he busts his butt to take advantage of this opportunity is opportunistic. And honestly why is scoring the only metric for a man who obviously can, at will? did AK become an all-star because he could score more than 17 ppg? no he became one because he could also add 5 blocks, 5 steals, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists, in the same game. Points aren’t all that matter
but we can all agree, Paul Millsap, The man can score.
by gubihero on Jan 18, 2012 3:03 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Anyone who scores is opportunistic.
They are taking the opportunity to put the ball in the hoop. Wtf kind of argument is this?
For the Love of the Game
Stockton to Malone- The perfect combination!!
MonSTARZ forever!
Thank you Dictonary Man!
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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jan 18, 2012 3:08 PM MST up reply actions
To call Millsap an opportunistic scorer
You really don’t know his game.
Love the team ball the Jazz are playing
Sans Karl Malone, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say this is the most complete frontcourt we’ve ever had.
Serious question: who ends up odd man out? Sap is a beast, can’t let him go. Favors has only had a small taste of his potential. He’s not going anywhere. Al is a good shotblocker and has made improvements. Kanter is a rebounding beast, solid 1-1 defender who has the makings of being a good scorer too. We can’t afford or have minutes for all 4 for the long term future. Who goes? And why?
by Stockton2Malone on Jan 18, 2012 1:55 PM MST reply actions
nobody needs to go
let them play out their contracts. If Kanter or Favors out play the guys starting ahead of them, it’ll be real hard for Corbin to keep them on the bench next season.
"I hate it! It looks like a stickup at 7-Eleven. Five guys standing there with their hands in the air."
Norm Sloan
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors."
Weldon Drew
I meant long term- said so up there.
by Stockton2Malone on Jan 18, 2012 2:24 PM MST up reply actions
I think EcERyda69 was suggesting that the long term is dictated by the short term.
If I’m right about that, then I agree with him. I think Favors and Kanter have a long way to go to be better than Millsap and Jefferson. So it will largely depend on how they develop before Millsap and Jefferson’s contracts are up. When it’s time to talk contracts w/ Millsap and Jefferson, the Jazz will have to see what kind of money they’re looking for. If they’re willing to take a salary cut, then maybe you can keep all 4 through 2013/14. If they both want big money, then you have to let one or both walk.
If Big Al keeps developing like he has been, I’m just not sure how you can let him go unless he’s asking for way too much money or Favors and/or Kanter have shown to be as good or better.
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I love what Millsap has done & is doing...
but the west is stacked with forwards more likely to be all-stars than Paul, whether it is because of fan name recognition or actual production: Durant, Aldridge, Love, Nowitski, Gasol, Griffin, Gay, Duncan, etc so I don’t really expect Millsap to make it. Even if his stats are comparable/better than those of some of the guys I just listed, casual fans (aka all-star game fans) don’t know who he is, and there in lies the rub.
He definitely won't get in on the fans vote
The hope is that the coaches will take notice and vote him in
@BravetheEarth
Also, if millsap was playing 36 mpg
his stats would be 19.7 ppg, 10.4 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.3 spg, and .9 bpg
but he’s on a good enough team that he doesn’t need to play that much.
these are stats from THIS year. and limited to right now. i can’t predict how he’ll play beyond this moment in time. but right now — he’s playing very well. all-star-ish.
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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jan 18, 2012 2:42 PM MST reply actions
Absolutely. Not a chance for fan voting.
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Oops, should be under Guybrush.
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whaat?
Please tell me your line about MIlsap and evolution was referring to his continued improvement from his rookie year and not just an extremely racist thing to say.
by Tony_Bi-Gwynning on Jan 19, 2012 10:28 AM MST reply actions
evolution from a limited offensively, tweener forward who could only rebound
into a borderline all-star whose strength is his versatile offensive game for a man his size . . .
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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jan 19, 2012 10:34 AM MST up reply actions
Which, of course, has nothing to do with the actual theory of evolution.
It would take several generations for development of genetic traits to turn into a competitive advantage under the theory of evolution.
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it's using the word evolution in more than one way
it is word play, not some sort of F1 → generation issue of natural selection, ha ha.
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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jan 19, 2012 12:36 PM MST up reply actions
It's not really wordplay when you also say "scientific community" and "theory of evolution".
I could buy it as wordplay if you’d said something like “It’s the best evidence of evolution to date” or something like that. As is, it pretty much does imply natural selection and Darwinisim.
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perhaps, more than anything, this is evidence that i'm a poor writer?
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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jan 19, 2012 5:56 PM MST up reply actions
No no... these are just nitpicky things, in my opinion.
In all of your articles, the substance is there if people choose not to get tripped up by nitpicks. The substance of the articles is always thick and gooey and full of stats, which is great.
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Quite the first comment there, Tony_Bi-Gwynning
I’m not sure if anyone else on the board read that line the same way you did, but I sure didn’t.
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Long time Lurker on an RSS feed. Huge Jazz fan (Former Jazzbot blogger actually) and I generally love the blog. Had to jump in when I saw that line though. Don’t know how many people read it the way I did, but I did a double take when I saw it. I understand the context, but still. Hate to whip out postgraduate English degrees here but if you were intending any sort of wordplay then you were intending multiple meanings, and an obvious one of those meanings is natural selection and an implied joke that most would consider racist. This sort of comparison has been going around the sports world for a long time, but that doesn’t mean we should keep it going. Just my two cents.
by Tony_Bi-Gwynning on Jan 19, 2012 2:48 PM MST reply actions
I'm guessing zero.
Don’t know how many people read it the way I did
Multiple meanings is not the only form of wordplay, postgraduate English degrees notwithstanding.
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Funny
I remember my English program days—when a single word could contaminate humanity with misery forever, when true indignation and outrage was reserved for a single line in a 16th-century poem—if you analyzed it a certain way, wrung its meaning like a wet towel, demanding it say some horrific subtext nobody else can hear—marginalized some segment of humanity, the consequences of which are still manifest today by the evil-doings of modern venture capitalists.
#Nostalgia
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
That said, yeah maybe it wasn't the best way to put it
since the metaphor really didn’t work anyway. And yeah, if you interpret it a certain way it sounds bad.
So Amar needs to do some better self-editing when he’s writing these things at 2:00 a.m.
I got the crap beat out of me in Provo one time
Yep... that's a far cry from Internet forums and blogs for sure. :)
I don’t think Amar spent years wrestling over whether each word he used left the reader with the right feeling either though.
But I don’t know Amar that well, so maybe he did.
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Ouch
I didn’t expect a # nostalgia for expressing my concern.
I’ll slink back to my lurkdom then
by Tony_Bi-Gwynning on Jan 19, 2012 4:11 PM MST reply actions
i don't want you to lurk, and you have brought something to my attention that is important
and i appreciate it. i will endeavor to be much more precise in my prose in future posts, so pardon me? : )
also, feel free to talk about the JAZZ at some point too.
and again, i was attempting to talk about the evolution of millsap as a basketball player. i guess i’m so far removed from “thinking / worrying about people coming from apes as an insult” that it totally went over my head.
IF anything, Fesenko is clear evidence of a missing link. Does that upset people too? sheesh . . . (kermit the frog voice)
can’t we just talk about recreational drugs instead?
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by AllThatJazzBasketball on Jan 19, 2012 6:00 PM MST up reply actions
Bwaaahahahhhahahhahahhha
can’t we just talk about recreational drugs instead?
I have no regrets about bringing that up. I may have some regrets about it becoming a running joke, but I think it was worth it.
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Hey man, please don't be so thin skinned. If you're gonna make it here, you've gotta learn to stand your ground!
It was a valid point, I just disagreed with it.
By the way, is there a particular significance to your username? And is that Billy Ripken in your profile pic?
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