Karl and John Ruined Basketball for All Jazz Fans- The Downbeat - #688
Al Jefferson arguably had his best offensive game as a Jazz man on Saturday night. He's had some great performances in his 110 games in Utah. Against Washington, Jefferson put up 34 points, 12 rebounds on essentially 70% shooting from the field. It turns out it is the 5th time that Big Al has scored more than 30 points, grabbed more than 10 rebounds and shot over 60% from the field as a Jazz man and his 11th time in his career. Here is a table of those performances in a Jazz uni via basketball-reference.com:
I'll let you guys decide which game was the most dominant performance. I'm partial to the OKC performance on the road.
I honestly thought that Al's performance would rank among the greatest performances of Jazz history, but that got me looking at Karl Malone's performances. Karl Malone has eclipsed that 30 point, 10 rebound 60% shooting barrier only 137 times. It's also interesting to note that the Jazz were 109-28 in those 137 games.
We often talk about Devin Harris being unfairly compared to Deron Williams or John Stockton, but it's really every future scoring Jazz big man that is at an unfair advantage for the rest of time.
And if you care to know, Carlos Boozer has reached the same barrier 28 times in his career, 23 with the Jazz and Paul Millsap has done it 6 times in his career.
I know that we talk about it a lot and I just brought up how unfair it is to talk about Karl Malone all the time, but in my research, I was reminded how absolutely dominating Karl Malone was in his aptly titled "revenge game" against the poor Bucks. Again, via basketball-reference:
61 points, 18 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 steals, 80.8% fg%, 19-23 from the line and the most incredible part of that line: all in only 33 minutes. I dare you to find a more impressive line from a big man not named Wilt or Mr. Russell. No, seriously. I don't want to research it, so find it for me, please.
Moni has already mentioned the Randy Rigby interview on KFAN last week and I'm not going to comment on it too much. Just wanted to update you on a development regarding this portion as cited by Moni in last Friday's downbeat.
Rigby also mentioned that the Jazz's research shows that the fan base is very happy with the talent of the team and say that the team is fun to watch.
I am now going to present you with an email I intercepted this weekend that brings the front offices "research" to a better light.
If you follow David Locke on Twitter, you may have seen him post an interview he did with Houston Rockets head coach Kevin McHale, specifically on the development of big men. From that interview, since it is hard to link to that webpage:
Tonight before the game I took the opportunity to ask him (Kevin McHale) about developing big men like Derrick Favors and Enes Kanter. The Hall of Famer didn’t paint a pretty picture.
"They are real raw but they are young. Honestly and to be truthful, they end up being causalities of coming out and not being able to develop. It is one thing to be developing against other 18 and 19 year old your development gets stunted when Dwight Howard is the one you are developing against."
McHale continued and explained why so many of the young bigs never completely get all out of their talent.
"You have to have success at some point. That is why too many guys come into our league and don’t have any success and they become rebounder and shot blockers and they become specialty guys. Where had they stayed somewhere for three or four years and got good tutelage and got bigger and stronger and got their offensive games going. You don’t get a lot of confidence going against Dwight Howard."
I appreciate this tidbit from Kevin McHale, because it correlates perfectly with some research I have been doing on developing young "future of the franchise" players. You may have read my piece I did on the history of developing great wing players. If you read that piece you may have noticed that it dealt solely with developing guards and small forwards. I wanted to be able to lump young wing players and big men together, but you simply can't. The truth is that while all the greatest wing players of the league had the ball and the minutes from the beginning of their careers, the same isn't said of all the most dominant big men. They all got a lot of playing time right off the bat, but not necessarily shot attempts. So while I advocate the ball being in young wings' hands, the same is not necessary for big men, but they do need on court experience. I will write more about the history of great big men and their developments in a post later this week, if you are interested, but I wanted to make a couple more points on what McHale said above.
-If you notice, Kevin McHale is essentially saying that when big men leave college early for the draft, they tend to struggle as 19 or 20 year olds playing against older, more developed men. He isn't really saying anything about how much or how little playing time these big men should get, but he implies that their all-around games are stunted because they have to play against better big men like Dwight Howard.
-While i think that is a valuable and probably accurate insight from McHale, what is he saying exactly? He is saying that guys need more time to learn against guys their own size and with their own skill level. So is McHale suggesting that the Jazz send Favors and Kanter back to college, or down to the d-league for a couple of years? I think he is implying that it would be necessary to get the most out of them eventually.
-Thirdly, would you consider Kanter and Favors as having some success so far in their careers or not? What do you imagine is their own assessment of their first year(s) in the league?
-And Lastly, McHale is painting this picture by saying how unfair it is to throw a 19 or 20 year old kid at a guy like Dwight Howard. Ironically, this is the same Dwight Howard who, as a 19 year old boy, was thrown to the wolves in the form of Shaquille O'neal or Tim Duncan, or Kevin Garnett 33 minutes a night and as a starter all 82 games his rookie season. Isn't that even a little bit ironic, Alanis? Dwight Howard was able to overcome that horrible path of development okay.
I was pondering the other night about how Jazz fans determine their favorite players on the team and I wondered what effect playing for another team had on a Jazz player's likeability. It's no secret that I like Paul Millsap more than I like Al Jefferson as a player. But why? They are both nice guys, both work hard, both have big strengths and big weaknesses, some common with each other. Part of it is their paychecks and effect on the financial flexibility of the team. But more than anything, Paul is a career Jazzman, and Al Jefferson is not. I know it's silly and biased, but I admit it. It's not fair to Al Jefferson, because he didn't choose his career path. With that said:
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I would love to live in Randy Rigby’s world, there is an upside to everything that happens to the Jazz, I guess his main job is to cover for all the “no comments” from KOC and the angry tweets from Greg Miller.
#3
made this your best Downbeat EVER and cracked me up completely.
5. I would say that not being a career Jazzman doesn’t make me like a guy less, but a guy being a career Jazzman does give him something of a sentimental edge. (AK sigh)
Without actually researching it....
a David Robinson final game of the 94 season comes to mind…. but only because i remember him scoring 71 points
Okay, having looked up a box score, I'm convinced Karl's line was better
not that I ever doubted it for a second! :)
Dwight Howard came early to the NBA, right?
I don’t know about the McHale comments. Shaq didn’t develop any skills in college. Al Jefferson came right out of high school too, right? And he’s not a specialist. Is he saying that Hasheem Thabeet would have been the next Hakeem if he had played longer in the D-league?
What is the data here? I think an easier claim to make is that some big guys are super talented and others aren’t. I think Favors is super talented. I think the sky is the limit for him. I think Kanter is going to be a rebounder, bruiser, garbage man and won’t score 30+ very often. I don’t think that would change if he played at KY for a few years. Sullinger is in his 2nd year at OSU having a lot of success. Is he going to dominate the paint in the NBA? I don’t think so.
I'll make it coach.
Kanter
Don’t under estimate Kanter. He is developing faster than Favors.
Will he develop to the point of being as tall and leaping as Favors?
jk – I know Kanter is demonstrating some serious fundamentals and a nose for the ball – Millsap-like. But I’ve gotta think Favors has a higher ceiling.
I'll make it coach.
I see Kanter eventually developing a pick and pop offensive game
If that is the case he should be able to score a point or two to go along with the rebounding.
4 If you believe Kevin McHale.
Then there is some benefit to having Millsap and Jefferson start and play against the “Dwight Howards” of the league and then having Favors and Kanter come off of the bench and play against the other team’s back-ups.
However that being said, at some point you just have to play against anyone and everyone to get better.
Here's the greatest thing about Malone's line
26 shots.
David Robinson took 41 shots and 25 free throws to reach 71 (47% of his team’s total shots). Kobe took 46 shots and 20 free throws to reach 81 (57% of his team’s total shots).
Karl took 26 shots. It was only 28% of the team’s total shots. Plus 18 rebounds. All in just 33 minutes. Holy crap.
Email: jamidget@gmail.com
Is there a more impressive line from anyone ever, not just big men?
He had an ORtg of 170 that game after all! I just can’t imagine anyone else ever coming close to that kind of efficiency.
by derekfinlinson on Feb 20, 2012 12:25 PM MST up reply actions
#5
My favorite player is Earl Watson. I Don’t care if a player started their career here or not. Actually I like it when players have played out side of the Utah bubble and then come back and realize they like the bubble.
by kgpogi on Feb 20, 2012 10:11 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
I don't agree with McHale's assessment. How is Derrick Favors going to be stunted by going up against better competition?
I mean, really? So a player like Derrick Favor’s growth is going to be stunted because he’s playing against Dwight Howard? How does that happen? Favors will just not get over that he didn’t put up 35 and 12 against “superman”, or Stoudemire, (hey, didn’t he come out of high school?), so his confidence is going to be shot for the rest of his career?
No, growth is not stunted by playing better competition. Growth is stunted by not playing, period. I think that playing meaningful minutes against the best nba competition can only make players better. I think that Favors would be more motivated to increase his skills if he knows that he is playing against the best players in the would.
So, no. I don’t think that playing against Dwight Howard stunts developement. It enhances it.
Because here is the thing…. Favor’s and Kanter’s development is key to the Jazz’s future, because here’s the deal….
I still really like Big Al, but I now realize that if he is your team’s primary Option, he is just good enough to get you beat.
BRIAN W BROCKHOFF
This is the sad truth
But he is still wearing a Jazz uniform so as a Jazz fan I will continue to irrationally believe that he will get better in ways that will actually translate into wins, or that the coaching staff will utilize ihim more effective ways or that he and Favors will run into each other so hard that they will merge and become the player we have always dreamed of.
Number 5
To me being a life-long Jazzman helps. But it’s not necessary: see Memo, Korver, Raja, Earl, and Hornacek. I really liked (or like in the case of Raja & Earl) all of these guys.
Email: jamidget@gmail.com
Raja Bell
I heard Raja’s right adductor is ailing him once again. Do you think if i kicked him in the left adductor it would straiten him out so he can play tonight? No?… yeah, didn’t think so either.
Favors and Kanter
The only think stunting the growth of these two kids is the fact they don’t each get 20 mins a night. I still like how the jazz play to win vs. develop because the first thing you want to ingrain upon these guys is WINNING!!!! Alot of players ie. Al Jefferson have been great but never won. Teach these kids to win first. After they learn to love to win night in and night out they will work harder when they lose!
P.S. Who will go out on a limb with me and say the Kanter will be a better player then Favors? anyone?
I want to see Kanter on offense over the next year or so before I say.
Right now Kanter’s the superior rebounder and man-defender.
Favors is much better offensively and better overall defender (P&R’s, rotating to help on penetration in the post). Favors also makes more dumb mistakes.
Email: jamidget@gmail.com
Footwork
Kanter’s offense looks like he knows what he wants to do. he has better foot work.
Favors has the Higher ceiling but if he doesn’t calm down and make an under-control move then he wont progress like we all hope. Kanter’s P&R Defense isn’t that bad. he isn’t as good as Favors but I wouldn’t say Favors is “much better”. It will be fun to see how they do tonight vs Tony Parker. He tends to make the best defenders look silly.
I'll say this- Favors has a higher ceiling, but Kanter has a better shot at reaching his ceiling
I’m actually quite surprised by Kanter. He’s playing extremely well. These Per 36 #s from individual players rookie season should put it in perspective:
- 11.6 & 11.1 with 1.8 assists and 1.1 blocks
- 13.9 & 8.6 with 2 assists, 1.1 blocks
- 12.7 & 12.9 with .2 assists., 1.1 blocks
All 3 were roughly the same on turnovers, and
- is Horford, 2 is Marc Gasol and 3 is Kanter. Not “exact science” analysis, of course, but very encouraging nonetheless. I’m not saying Kanter is or isn’t going to be as good as Horford or Gasol, just pointing out the similarites.
Favors has a much higher ceiling than Kanter, I’m just more skeptical of him reaching it.
by Stockton2Malone on Feb 20, 2012 1:45 PM MST up reply actions
Give it time...
I have been all for winning and gradual development of the bigs this season. I’m not sure we would be scrutinizing our bigs rotations and minutes if we were winning more. Right now the Jazz are losing a lot primarily because all of our wings not named Raja Bell have been playing D-league level basketball. Raja has been pretty good but even at his best now is simply a rotation player not someone you have to account for on offense much except for spot up threes.
If things continue to go bad in the near future look for the front office to trade Jefferson for some wing help, which would be somewhat of a shame because Jefferson has been pretty good overall, but we’re not trading Favors or Kanter and none of our other wings have any value.
Favors I think has been an overall a little disappointing this year. He probably should be dominating second string bigs and isn’t doing so. Until he can can show that skill he’s not going to get many of Sap’s or Al’s minutes.
Kanter has been great for a rookie. After an initial break-in welcome to the NBA period there in the first couple of months he has been a solid contributor to the team.
My question is, when Favors and Kanter are in together why do you think Favors gets most of the post-up opportunities. Is it because coach Corbin think we have a better chance of winning the game going to him, or because Favors needs more game time practice with those plays if he’s ever going to reach his potential?
Right now the Jazz are losing a lot primarily because all of our wings not named Raja Bell have been playing D-league level basketball.
I guess you’ve missed Hayward’s play since the last week and a half of January: 15 points, 3 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal, 1 block per 36 minutes.
I know Hayward didn’t have a great game last night, but the recent losing has actually coincided with pretty strong overall play from both Raja and Hayward.
Email: jamidget@gmail.com
No he hasn't really impressed me..
His defense has been pretty good, and that’s all effort that he should get credit for. But he hasn’t shown that he can be a consistent threat shooting from the outside which is what this team really needs….wings to spread the floor. Shooting .200 for the month from 3 point land in February and .250 for the season isn’t getting it done. His three 20 + point games this year have been against Golden State, Sacramento and Memphis.
I like Deron Williams
and he didn’t play for the jazz his whole career. Other players I like who didn’t play for the Jazz their entire career include Larry Bird, Kevin Durant, Matt Kemp, Drew Brees…
I'll make it coach.
I don't like anyone who doesn't play for the Jazz...
lifetime or not makes no difference to me. If they’re on the Jazz, I’ll like them if they work hard & don’t whine to the refs. If they’re not on the Jazz, they disappear from my radar completely. It will be interesting to see if that changes for me when Earl leaves, because I’ve never enjoyed a player as much as him.
I wish we could test the validity of this claim
by signing 10-day contracts to Allen Iverson, Latrell Sprewell, Tracy McGrady and Greg Ostertag.
I'll make it coach.
All Star game
don’t sign Allen cuz he’ll make the All Star game this year.

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